Batteries and Charging

[Blue~Go]

Okay, a few screen shots of the Victron Connect app, which would give you a Smart Network, in addition to just being able to see everything, and or make tweaks if you need to. The Screen shots happen to be from my portable panel MPPT right now (with a few names changed to protect the innocent )

What I didn't screen shot is when you first open the Victron Connect app. But what it does is show you a screen with all your devices listed in one view (in your case, say BMV 712, OrionXS, and IP22 shore charger... maybe future MPPT). You can click on any one of them, and it brings up a page like this (which happens to be an MPPT solar controller):

(If you click on these images to enlarge them they will be easy to read.)

So you have the name of the device (which you can name to whatever you like) in the upper left. On the left side, you can see that it's currently generating 0 watts (well, it is nighttime!), but you can also see what it has done for the past 30 days (if you scroll it to the right, you see more days). You can see how each bar has three colors. The white is time spent in bulk, the light blue is absorption, and the dark blue is float.

Now if you click "detailed" (just to the right of the currently selected "Last 30 days"), you get this:

Now you can see the daily yield in Watt hours (divide by ~12 to get Amp hours); the pmax which is the max wattage the panels put out over the day (so today my 200 watt array hit a max moment of 182 watts - not bad for January); the vmax which is the maximum voltage (40.29 volts because I have two 18 volt panels in series and when it's cold in the morning they make even higher voltage).

Just below that you can see that the house bank was at a maximum voltage of 14.21 (absorption is set at 14.2 and LFP don't use temperature compensation), and a minimum of 12.98 (overnight at its lowest point).

The same readout shows for each of the 30 days.

You can also see a pop up box that shows even more detail. That box will show up for any of the daily bar graphs that you click on. In the screen shot I've clicked on the "2 days ago" bar and it expands the data to show that the solar controller spent 6 hours and 18 minutes in bulk (62% of its day); 1 hour 0 minutes in absorption (I have it set for 1 hour fixed abs time) (10% of its day), and 2 hours 51 minutes in float (28% of its day). You can see the same thing for any of the other days if you click on them specifically.

On the right panel you can choose between "Status" (which I have up now), or "Trends." Status is a bit dull right now because it's nighttime and the charger is off. So it's only showing the voltage of the battery bank (currently 13.27 volts). If the solar controller were On, it would show how many amps were coming in. Let's say it showed 12 amps. Then I could go look at the BMV display and if it showed 7 amps that would tell me that of my 12 amps of incoming power, 5 amps was going toward active loads (maybe the refrigerator is on or I'm charging my laptop or etc.) and 7 amps into the batteries themselves.

"Trends" has some actively moving graphs that look sort of like stock market reports. I don't use that tab very often but it can be helpful if there is a problem.

Okay, on the next image I have clicked the little gear symbol in the upper right and it takes you to settings. From there I clicked "Battery" for battery settings.

I won't go on about each one, but you can see the basic idea. There are some presets, or you can just set everything manually, or you can make your own "User defined" preset (which is selected on this solar controller) which you can then use on each thing (Orion, IP22, etc.). But you can also just write the settings you want down and then enter them manually for each device. If you are using a Smart Network especially, you want all the settings to match so they are all on the same page.

You can see there is also a slider for "Expert Mode," which can get you into more details of various settings if you want to tweak them (or not). These are all really easy to change. You just click where the number is (eg 14.2V for absorption) and you can just type in the new number. If you get off track, you can set it back to defaults and build back up from there.

The whole thing works over Bluetooth, so you basically need to be in or close to the RV. You can set a password (recommended and easy) so that someone else can't accidentally or on purpose go in and see or change things.

Okay, next:

When you click the gear in the upper right, another choice besides Battery Settings is "Smart Networking." This is where you can go in and see your Smart Network, set it up, "join" it with your various chargers, etc.

Here you can see that there is a Smart Network set up ("Copenhagen") and that right now there are two devices attached to it, one Laser BMV (battery monitor) and one solar controller (Laser MPPT). There would be a matching green check mark next to the MPPT solar controller, if it were on (daytime). You can see that the solar controller is using the voltage sense from the BMV via the Smart Network. You would also see that it was using the temperature sense from the BMV except it isn't because LFP isn't using temp comp. (It can be used though for things like cold weather shutdown etc., but I digress.)

So that's all there is to setting up the Smart Network. When you first go to this tab it would ask if you wanted to join an existing Smart Network with this device, or if you wanted to Create a new one. If you were first setting it up you would create a new one (eg Copenhagen) and then subsequently you would say yes I would like to join the existing network Copenhagen. It's all pretty clear.

As much as I liked my previous Morningstar solar controller (it was a great unit), I do not miss having to use Windows (on a borrowed computer) and then work my way through archaic screens to program it.

PS: Did you happen to notice on the first image with the past 30 days, that the bars on the far right were all white, meaning that the WHOLE day was bulk charging (meaning the batteries were still not full by the time the sun went down)? Well, as it turned out, on previous days (out of the screenshot to the right), I just kept sliding lower and lower every day. Meaning day one my batteries got up to 100%, day two only 80%, day three 60%, etc. At first I was like well, it IS the middle of winter, so the sun is low in the sky and the days are short. But come on I never had this much trouble before (?).

Well, I did some troubleshooting and as it turned out, one of my two panels had given up the ghost entirely. Upon close inspection I could see a burned spot under the top glass on one of the tracer stripes between the cells, and in the same place on the back of the panel a bubble and small hole! Not sure how that happened, but it was clearly toast. The reason I didn't pick up on it right away is that the incoming voltage was still the same as it normally would be with the two panels added together (38 volts or so). So the broken panel was passing voltage, but there were no amps behind it. So I was running on only one panel when I thought I had two.

Once I figured out the problem I took the broken panel out of the mix and put in a spare matching one I had instead, and life went back to normal. Those days of "all white bars" were the system catching back up (full days of bulk charging) after a week or two of running only one working panel while my SOC slowly dwindled until the point I knew okay, this is not just because it's mid-winter --- something is not right here.

[deppstein]

Blue...Read through your latest posts last night before bed and was wide awake at 6 to read again and digest it all..."Chop Wood, Carry Water!" Must say again how much I appreciate all the time and thought you are putting in to help me think this all through. Incredibly helpful. Wonder if that is case for others as well?

Bottom line...I have come around to your way of thinking in terms of temp monitoring of batteries themselves..SO CLOSE, as you say, might as well go for it. I sailed a Snark once--Never Again! I am now visualizing myself on a beam reach screaming across the water on a Laser! To wit: Go with the Orion XS, and switch from IP65 to IP22 12/30 for Smart Networking capability (you are right, no can do with the IP65). And tie them together, along with battery temp monitoring via the Smart Shunt IP21. I will still mount the Orion in the battery compartment, probably along with the Smart Shunt, with the IP22 mounted in the larger storage compartment on common wall....my thinking--not set in stone.

I still plan on using the IP22 to bypass the PD4645 as much as possible (not all together since I still want option to run AC or furnace all night on the extremes). My 1000 watt pure sine inverter tied directly to batteries should be sufficient for my AC electrical needs otherwise. Not sure I completely followed what you had to say about running through the microwave outlet...wouldn't that mean that the 4645 would be running simultaneously (unless I disconnected it completely? Seems like more wiring and futzing than I want to do when I can just plug into the IP22 via the hole I will drill and cover in door of long storage bay (with Sealproof Slim Weatherproof Shallow Outdoor Outlet Cover). Do let me know what you might suggest for fusing under those circumstances.

The Victron app stuff does look amazing...reminds me of how I balked at getting the ScanGauge II the first time you suggested it...and now, of course I watch it all the time to keep an eye on water temp and particularly transmission temp given that I carry the bikes on the front.

With the basic plan pretty much set, I will now turn my attention to working out where best to put everything--again, all comments/suggestions WELCOME.

...time for my second cup of coffee...if I'm missing anything, be sure to let me know.
David

[deppstein]

Just when I thought I knew where things were headed, I hit a Roadblock. In particular, the plan of doing battery temp sensing by installing a Victron Smart Shunt IP21 to link the Orion XS and Blue Smart IP22 chargers has been derailed by the fact that nearly all of the "load" lines in the Rig are ground to chassis, and therefore it would require an extensive re-wiring of the system to get all those grounds to run through the Shunt...not only would readings be inaccurate, but there would seemingly be increased potential for multiple grounding points that could create ground loops if I were to try to change things around. So, have to take a step back.

Nest thing I will do is check to see if the Orion XS itself has the potential to add a remote temp sensor. If so, that would at least give me accurate temp sensing for the majority of my charging (alternator). I know that the Blue Smart IP 22 charger does not have such capability.

I will also now go back and re-read the other temp sensing ideas that Blue suggested to see if I can find a more promising path.

Any other suggestions?

Maybe I'll end up sailing that Snark after all.

[Blue~Go]

Blue...Read through your latest posts last night before bed and was wide awake at 6 to read again and digest it all..."Chop Wood, Carry Water!" Must say again how much I appreciate all the time and thought you are putting in to help me think this all through.

Thank you for the kind words. I appreciate that you are also taking the time to look things up, think them over, etc.

Bottom line...I have come around to your way of thinking in terms of temp monitoring of batteries themselves..SO CLOSE, as you say, might as well go for it. I sailed a Snark once--Never Again! I am now visualizing myself on a beam reach screaming across the water on a Laser!

(Snark was my first sailing experience - well actually a "Sunflower" that a friend brought to the lake. Still remember how fun it was..... until you inevitably slid down into the styrofoam bathtub and everything went haywire.)

To wit: Go with the Orion XS, and switch from IP65 to IP22 12/30 for Smart Networking capability (you are right, no can do with the IP65). And tie them together, along with battery temp monitoring via the Smart Shunt IP21. I will still mount the Orion in the battery compartment, probably along with the Smart Shunt, with the IP22 mounted in the larger storage compartment on common wall....my thinking--not set in stone.

This sounds good. There are a couple of advantages to the BMV 712 over the Smart Shunt but I don't think either of them would apply to you. One is that the 712 has a relay that can be used for various things. Two is that while the Smart Shunt has the bluetooth module in the shunt itself, the 712 has it in the display head. So if you had a big boat or motorhome and the shunt would be far away in the engine room, the bluetooth might be slightly weak at the helm (vs. you could put the display head for the 712 at the helm and have the bluetooth right there). I don't think this would be a problem for you (besides you will have the bluetooth of the Orion and the IP22 already down in the battery compartment). And of course the 712 has a physical display, which may or may not be of interest.

My Victron components are mostly under my couch, so very close. However I have an MPPT in my car, and I can still get that bluetooth from inside the Chinook, though it's a little spotty. But then that is farther away and there is metal involved (car body).

So if/since you don't want a physical display, have no need for a relay, and your shunt will not be too far away to read, the Smart Shunt should be just fine.

I'm sure you saw this in the install manual, but you need to have ONLY the negative cable from the battery going to the "battery" side of the shunt. Everything else goes to the "load" side of the shunt. That way the house bank/shunt can see everything that's going in and out, with no "sneaker" loads that it can't keep track of. So in other words, everything that goes to the house bank negative post now, goes to the shunt "load" side (or to a bus bar, thence to the "load" post of the shunt if you have many lugs), then a new short wire goes from the shunt's "battery" post to the actual negative battery post.

I still plan on using the IP22 to bypass the PD4645 as much as possible (not all together since I still want option to run AC or furnace all night on the extremes). My 1000 watt pure sine inverter tied directly to batteries should be sufficient for my AC electrical needs otherwise. Not sure I completely followed what you had to say about running through the microwave outlet...wouldn't that mean that the 4645 would be running simultaneously (unless I disconnected it completely? Seems like more wiring and futzing than I want to do when I can just plug into the IP22 via the hole I will drill and cover in door of long storage bay (with Sealproof Slim Weatherproof Shallow Outdoor Outlet Cover). Do let me know what you might suggest for fusing under those circumstances.

Okay, now the rubber is meeting the road

So let's clarify a couple of things and make sure we are on the same page (then either one of us can pipe in if there is a discrepancy or misunderstanding).

1) Your AC electrical system (i.e. the AC breakers that power the Air Conditioning, Microwave, and Outlets/refrigerator) is completely separate from your DC charger (4645 or whatever). So excepting any tiny DC requirement (for a thermostat or something), those are simply running off AC. That's why they have AC breakers. (The furnace runs off DC and propane regardless, so not involved in AC loads.)

2) Your DC electrical system is running off your batteries. The charger is charging or maintaining the batteries (maintaining in the sense of the float charge making it so that you can run your loads the rest of the day without needing to run the batteries down completely before the charger starts charging again).

So what we are talking about with the IP22 or the 4645 is the DC charging of the DC batteries. That can come from the sun, from a generator, your start battery, or from shore power. The shore power and/or generator are coming in as AC power so they are distinct in that way. AC power coming in from either the AC power post or generator then goes through the Automatic Transfer Switch (in the brown box type system) to the main AC breaker. That way you can't have two incoming AC power sources (charger uses AC but is a DC power source).

Them the shore charger (4645, IP22) takes power from AC and turns it into DC which goes to your batteries and your DC loads. In other words, there is no direct route from the shore charger to the DC loads wherein the batteries would not also be in parallel. So float on the IP22 essentially keeps your batteries at 13.6 (or whatever you set as float voltage) whenever you are plugged in, once it is done charging. Hence you can use all your DC loads without running down your batteries (with either the 4645 or the IP22).

The IP22 does have one more trick up its sleeve: It can be set to Power Supply mode (vs. Charger mode). This is handy if, say, it's winter and your house batteries are in your basement but you want to be able to run DC loads in the Chinook. In Power Supply mode (one click in Victron Connect) the IP 22 acts as your "batteries" and you can run all your DC power (it's possible the 4645 can do this too, but I couldn't immediately tell from the website).

As an aside, I see you have an inverter (not an inverter/charger). Question: So then I assume that inverter has its own outlets right on the inverter yourself that you just plug specific things into (separate from the Chinook stock power outlets, which feed from the AC panel directly). Right? Just checking. (But of course that wouldn't be in use if you are plugged in, because why...)

So....it's not that you need the PD4645 to supply shore power to the RV. From what I can see the 4645 is just the DC (battery) charger part of the brown box. The brown box also happens to house the AC main and branch breakers, and the DC fuses. This really just so that RV makers can just cut a hole and put in one box and move on along. You have the same functions in a typical boat system, but they use separate panels, typically with ring terminals (and stranded AC wire, not solid). But same general idea, just not "cut a hole and drop this cheap thing in"

Anyway, so I'm thinking you have a few options:

1) Bypass all your AC breaker protection and plug your IP22 right into shore power (15 amp outlet only, which might limit you since at least in campgrounds I've been to, there is not always a 15 amp inlet). Then run wires from the IP22 to your battery buss bars directly (cuz we're going to assume you are not just putting a stack of lugs on the battery post with no fusing). I don't love this option, but of course you can.

2) Still put the IP 22 in a separate location from the main system (i.e. next compartment over), with new DC wires to your battery buss bars. Only plug it into a stock Chinook outlet for its power supply. Now you have your main AC double-pole breaker for first protection, and your 15 amp branch breaker for protection small enough to protect the AC cord of the IP22 charger. Protected as designed. (You could potentially run wire from an existing outlet to a new outlet that you put in that compartment to avoid unsightly cord run.)

3) Put the IP22 in in place of your 4645 (wouldn't have to slot into that spot in the brown box, but say under the couch or sink nearby - there is a not-bad spot against the shower wall above the shore cord box), and wire it to the Chinook Charger breaker instead of plugging it into an outlet on the Outlets breaker. Now you still have all the protection, plus you have a dedicated breaker for turning the charger on and off as desired (the Chinook Charger breaker). Disconnect the 4645 (tho you could leave it in there, physically, it would not be connected electrically).

3a) Let #3 run through the existing Chinook wiring, which is full of voltage drop (long skinny wire goes up shower wall, over windows, down to batteries). But your Smart Network boosts voltage to overcome that.

3b) Run a new, thicker, shorter wire along the floor/wall joint behind the sink, behind the couch, and down to the batteries. Protect with loom (although it's out of the path of regular daily activities since it's behind the water tank). This also means all your loads will get better, cleaner power with less voltage drop (which the Smart Network doesn't have the ability to fix).

*********************************

Basically, since you are not re-doing everything, something(s) are going to end up being a bit of a patch, so it's worth thinking about how far do you go, and what patches or safety breaches do you accept vs. not accept, you know? I tend to balk when it comes to AC power.... that stuff is serious!

The Victron app stuff does look amazing...reminds me of how I balked at getting the ScanGauge II the first time you suggested it...and now, of course I watch it all the time to keep an eye on water temp and particularly transmission temp given that I carry the bikes on the front.

Still love my Scangauge II. Feels naked wtihout it, doesn't it?

They did a really nice job of making it look clean and be useful, didn't they? Oh but you should know that this is just the piker level Victron. To be truly cool you would have a Cerbo GX and access it all through VRM from anywhere on the planet. But we're not going there I haven't even gone there because while it is cool, I just don't need it for my relatively small systems. Victron Connect is fine and free.

...time for my second cup of coffee...if I'm missing anything, be sure to let me know.

Well let's see what you think about any of the above, and then we can keep noodling.

[noluck]

i plan to do 3B when mine goes back together, to a blue sea battery switch to shut off coach power.

[Blue~Go]

i plan to do 3B when mine goes back together, to a blue sea battery switch to shut off coach power.

Hi noluck,
Good plan. (BTW just found your Cummins conversion thread yesterday - wow, impressive!)
I basically did that back when I did my first big re-vamp of the DC distribution system. Pretty much as soon as I did the voltage drop calculation for that crazy long skinny wire run Chinook put in from the brown box to the batteries (back to the shower/kitchen corner, up the shower wall to the roof, across the top of the big window all the way to the driver B pillar, down the B pillar and then (finally!) to the battery. Geez, you've got like 9 volts left after all that (only a slight exaggeration).

That was a decade ago and no complaints. I did also move my house battery bank (which at that time I changed to AGM) to under the couch so I say "basically" because I didn't run it all the way down into the old battery compartment. That area is now my storage for solvents, eternally smelly black rubber chocks, and etc. since it's ventilated and not connected to the interior.

That said I still did run two cables "down and out" from the under-couch area: A 1/0 positive that goes up to the start positive, and a shorter 1/0 negative that runs down to the frame.

If you want a laugh: I read your reply and I was thinking "What's 3B?" Hmm, maybe an automotive wire gauge I've never heard of? A B2B charger I am unaware of? Finally it dawned on me that I'm the one who wrote "3b" above while organizing my post

[Blue~Go]

Just when I thought I knew where things were headed, I hit a Roadblock.

I somehow completely missed this post before -- it slipped in when I wasn't looking or something.

In particular, the plan of doing battery temp sensing by installing a Victron Smart Shunt IP21 to link the Orion XS and Blue Smart IP22 chargers has been derailed by the fact that nearly all of the "load" lines in the Rig are ground to chassis, and therefore it would require an extensive re-wiring of the system to get all those grounds to run through the Shunt...not only would readings be inaccurate, but there would seemingly be increased potential for multiple grounding points that could create ground loops if I were to try to change things around. So, have to take a step back.

Actually, that's not true (but I'm going to read through the rest of your post before commenting further).

Okay, so I can attest that there is absolutely no problem with installing a shunt and having a chassis ground. I have most of the originally chassis-grounded circuits in my Chinook STILL chassis grounded. There was just no particular reason to change them. Now I did run actual ground wires for new things I added, but that still leaves a large number of chassis grounds.

So here is what you do:

1) Take all the negative wires that now end up on your negative battery post (or, preferably a bus bar so that your negative post is not a giant spider mess of wires). Move all of those wires to the "load" side of the shunt (or, preferably, if those are now all on a negative bus bar, move the one wire that goes from the bus bar to the negative house battery post to the "load" side of the shunt).

Now everything that used to end up on the negative post of your house battery is instead on the "load" side of the shunt. 99% of your work is done.

2) Take a short but heavy cable (you can calculate but let's say 1/0 for now) and run it from the "battery" side of the shunt to the house negative battery post.

Done. Now everything that goes into or out of your house battery bank is "seen" by the shunt, which is the goal. Think about it: How would anything get into or out of the house battery bank WITHOUT passing through the shunt now? It can't just go through the air.

*********
Now a note: I forget the exact size of the original (I think white) wire that connected the house system to the chassis. But it's likely too small. In my case if was FOR SURE too small because I upgraded the positive wire from the Start battery to the House battery (in your case that will be the 4AWG Orion wire; in my case it was a 1/0AWG wire to also include self-jump starting). So now I had two weak links: That wire that connected the Chinook system to the chassis, and the short wire connecting the Ford start battery to the chassis.

In other words, my positive wire was fully 1/0. My negative "wire" was 90% the Chinook frame (big enough). But those two little connector wires were not large enough now. Hence I fixed that. Here is what I did:

1) I ran a ~2' section of 1/0 negative wire from the "load" side of the shunt (actually from the bus bar) to the chassis just inboard of the outside battery box (there was a perfect hole in the frame already; I just cleaned it up to bare metal and bolted my lug in place).

2) I exchanged the existing Ford short negative wire that went from the Start battery negative post to the body sheet metal for a larger wire.

Now you don't need to go up to 1/0 equivalent. You only need to go to 4AWG. So if I were you I would (as part of your job here):

1) Take a short length of black or yellow 4AWG and run it from your shunt "load" terminal (or bus bar) to the frame. I bet you have the same convenient hole in the frame. Just make sure to clean off the rust etc. down to bare metal where the lug will come in contact with the frame (just like all the Chinook chassis grounds). I used a bolt/washer/lockwasher/nut and not a pointy screw.

2) Have a look at that Ford Start battery negative wire to the chassis (body). I forget now how large it was. As long as it is large enough gauge to be protected by the fuses you will have at the Start and House end of your Orion wire, you will be fine as is. You only need to worry about this factor (ampacity of the wire) and not voltage drop because voltage drop is over a length of wire, and this particular wire is very short. So let's say it was 6AWG (which it might have been; I have changed mine but you could look at yours - I can explain where it is). You would like to fuse to at least 60 amps for the Orion. The ampacity of 6AWG wire (presuming 105ºC rated - I think it was) in an engine space is 102 amps (or 82 amps if it is the lesser, 90ºC rated wire - I don't think it would be lower than that in any case).

If it's 8AWG and only 90ºC rated (worse case), then it has the ampacity of 57.4 amps in an engine space, or 70 amps in free air. I would still feel ok with a 60 amp fuse there, because "in an engine space" has to do with heat, and that is not a very hot area (it is in the forward/outboard corner of the battery, so not right next to the engine but more behind the headlight).

That one was annoying to change but not impossible. But you might not have to change it. The main chassis ground addition is easy to do. You could make that one 4AWG (or larger if you want to).

So no problem having the chassis grounded loads included in your shunt readings. Carry on.

[deppstein]

Music to my ears! Clearly, temp sensor tied directly to the battery is best way to go with regard to setting accurate temperature compensation on both the Orion XS and IP 22 chargers. And I was not finding any viable alternative to the Smart Shut for this purpose. So, this clear explanation and "green light" for installing the Orion XS, IP22, and Smart Shunt has literally made my day. Thanks. I will proceed accordingly--including making sure the grounding from load side of Shunt and Start Battery are both taken care of.

But, before putting this thread to bed, I want to close the loop on the things that Blue mentioned regarding my plan to use the IP22 as a by-pass of the PD4645 for charging the new batteries.

--Quick reminder first off that I no longer have the Onan on-board generator, so no need to think about needing the PD4645 for that...nor microwave.

--BUT I do want to keep the PD4645...particularly to be able to run the Air Conditioner if we want, or maybe the electric portable heater that we plug in from time to time instead of running the furnace. With the IP22, I understand that I don't need it for charging, as well as the fact that the IP22 is a much Smarter charger all around.

--I can see the advantage of running the IP22 from a Rig outlet, or some other means of it being tied to the PD4645's fusing and breaker functions...but I don't really like having to tackle the wiring or running of cords to do that. So--how to "keep it simple" and still get fusing or breaker protection...that was my question. I idea I've come up with is to mount the IP22 in the adjacent storage compartment (next to the battery) as discussed so it can easily tie to the Smart Shunt, and put the 120 end of the cord in a waterproof outlet cover that sits on the outside of the storage bin door where it is both protected and easily available to be plugged in to either Shore Power (20 amp if available, or 30 amp with a dog bone adapter)...or to the Honda 1000. And rather than run it through the PD4645 to protect it, I will add a fused plug/breaker to the line! Yellow Jacket makes a good one, but I have also seen others that I think will work well. And, since DC power will still run through the current House System, I'm thinking that all that stuff will work as it does now in terms of fuse protection. That said, I do think your suggestion Blue of running a better wire on that run from batteries, through LVD and to the PD4645 is a GOOD idea...I'm adding that to the list.

And, "Bob's Your Uncle" as the Brits say!...unless I'm missing something else that I need to be set straight about. Again--this discussion has been incredibly useful to me.
David

[Blue~Go]

Music to my ears! Clearly, temp sensor tied directly to the battery is best way to go with regard to setting accurate temperature compensation on both the Orion XS and IP 22 chargers. And I was not finding any viable alternative to the Smart Shut for this purpose. So, this clear explanation and "green light" for installing the Orion XS, IP22, and Smart Shunt has literally made my day. Thanks. I will proceed accordingly--including making sure the grounding from load side of Shunt and Start Battery are both taken care of.

Great. I was going to make a post about a place that will make custom cables (that are easy to order) but held off for now. Just say the word if you are interested.

But, before putting this thread to bed, I want to close the loop on the things that Blue mentioned regarding my plan to use the IP22 as a by-pass of the PD4645 for charging the new batteries.

Good because I felt like this was not ironed out yet.

--Quick reminder first off that I no longer have the Onan on-board generator, so no need to think about needing the PD4645 for that...nor microwave.

Just to be clear, the PD4645 is a DC battery charger. Like the IP22 but much dumber. So it has nothing to do with running the Onan (which is an AC input). But fair enough, I don't have my Onan anymore either

--BUT I do want to keep the PD4645...particularly to be able to run the Air Conditioner if we want, or maybe the electric portable heater that we plug in from time to time instead of running the furnace. With the IP22, I understand that I don't need it for charging, as well as the fact that the IP22 is a much Smarter charger all around.

Okay, so like above, the Air Conditioner is an AC load (120 volt). So is an electric heater (120 volt AC load). The PD 4645 is a DC battery charger. So it has no bearing on running your AirCon or electric heater. Those both come right in from shore power and through your AC breakers.

--I can see the advantage of running the IP22 from a Rig outlet, or some other means of it being tied to the PD4645's fusing and breaker functions...but I don't really like having to tackle the wiring or running of cords to do that. So--how to "keep it simple" and still get fusing or breaker protection...that was my question.

Good question to have, because with AC you really don't want to mess around. Not that 12 volts is harmless, but...

I idea I've come up with is to mount the IP22 in the adjacent storage compartment (next to the battery) as discussed so it can easily tie to the Smart Shunt, and put the 120 end of the cord in a waterproof outlet cover that sits on the outside of the storage bin door where it is both protected and easily available to be plugged in to either Shore Power (20 amp if available, or 30 amp with a dog bone adapter)...or to the Honda 1000.

Okay, so I will have to look at my IP22 to see what size the AC cord is. Guessing 12 or 14 AWG so I guess it could be protected by a 20 or 30 amp breaker. I still don't love this idea. I'm not an AC expert, but when you plug in through your rig you have your double pole main breaker, plus GFCI protection, plus a smaller branch breaker. So I'm not sure about your proposed method (?). That's probably not hard to research a bit more though as 120 volt info is not hard to come by.

I think I know what you mean about the Yellow Jacket. LIke one of those contractor cord ends that is a little box with a fuse etc. in it. OK (I say, still not 100% sure, heh).

And rather than run it through the PD4645 to protect it, I will add a fused plug/breaker to the line!

Just to let my broken record play some more, the PD4645 has nothing to do with protecting anything. It's just a not-so-smart DC battery charger. One thing though: You might want to disconnect that, or at least turn off its breaker and tape over it or something as I don't think you want that charging your batteries once you have the IP22. But then of course with the new thicker/shorter wire you are going to add, you could just put the IP22 under the kitchen..... right there by the brown box.... and wire it to the designated Charger breaker in place of the PD4645.... Think how tidy and slick! No holes in your storage door, extra outlets, extra cords..... Inside, away from weather, sleek, breakered......

That said, I do think your suggestion Blue of running a better wire on that run from batteries, through LVD and to the PD4645 is a GOOD idea...I'm adding that to the list.

I know you know what I'm going to say here: I don't think you need to include the PD4645, but running a better main line from your DC fuses at the brown box to the house batteries is definitely a good idea. The Voltage Drop is epic. And that's not good epic.

this discussion has been incredibly useful to me.
David

Glad you think so. I'm always a little nervous piping into electrical discussions. For one thing, you don't always know how interested the other person is in doing anything or trying to get their mind around it. And for two, I worry about making a mistake. I mean, I understand what I'm doing (though not an electrician!), but you know, when writing from far away and not looking at it with your own eyes and hands..... it's a responsibility. So please do double check things and bring up anything that seems unclear.

BTW, I did read the full manual for the PD4645 charger. Ha ha I was gritting my teeth. I don't think you'll miss its contribution to your batteries.

BG

PS: I just thought of something. Maybe you are thinking that the whole "brown box" is the PD4645? Actually it is just a DC battery charger that sits in the bottom section of the brown box. The rest of the brown box is independent of the 4645 battery charger and includes basically three things:

1) Main AC double pole breaker (shorepower and (former) generator "in")
2) An Automatic Transfer switch that is there to make sure you only ever have ONE source of AC power coming in at any one time (i.e. only generator or only shore power) (tho you no longer have the Onan).
3) Four AC branch breakers (Air Conditioner, Microwave, Charger, Outlets)
4) A DC fuse panel from which wires branch out to all the DC loads in the Chinook (lights, stereo, furnace fan, water pump, etc.)

The PD4645 now is connected to the AC branch breaker labelled "charger" and then also to the (looooong) wires that go to your house batteries. That's because like the IP22, the 4645 it takes AC power and turns it into DC power to charge your house batteries. I was proposing that you remove or at least disconnect the PD4645 charger and wire the IP22 in its place (though physically the IPSS could be somewhere nearby -- or even further away if desired since AC wire has no voltage drop to speak of) (The IP22 is not the right shape to actually jam in the bottom of the brown box.) The 4645 could just sit there in the bottom, disconnected. Meanwhile the IP22 could use the Charger breaker and main breakers just like the 4645 used to.

The whole brown box architecture is just so that RV makers can just cut a hole and stick a box in quickly.

Now I removed the entire box because I wanted to use my boat type stuff. But remembering it and looking at a few photos, it's nothing magic. Just a compact setup of (not my favorite) screw connectors, breakers, fuses, and an Automatic Transfer Switch that you may not use anymore (not sure how you attach your Honda) but just sits back there.

Anyway, it occured to me that maybe it would be helpful to elaborate on that a bit.

[deppstein]

Blue...you are correct...throughout this discussion, I have been thinking of the PD4645 as the "Brown Box" in its entirety! So, no wonder there have been times throughout this thread that we might have been getting our wires crossed (so to speak!) All those times I was talking about keeping the PD4645, I was talking about maintaining the distribution capabilities and not the battery charging function. So glad you thought to ask and clarify.

That said, I am going to continue with my described plan of putting the IP22 in the storage next to the battery compartment and run the AC side (15 amp fused with something like the yellow jacket) out from there via my "outlet cover" idea for plugging into either Shore Power or the Honda This will be my Smart source of charging the House Batteries 95% of the time. When doing so, I will still have AC power through my 1000 watt inverter for everything except the air conditioner and plug-in electric heater. For those occasions, I'll plug shore power into its old spot to run through the "Brown Box." I understand that during those times, it will also be charging the batteries (not very smartly)--which, according to my reading, will be OK given that I am doing that only every once in a blue moon (really hot, or really cold). And, I will also address the crazy long wire run from batteries to "Brown Box" to minimize voltage drop.

And thanks for the offer to point me in the right direction for making wires...I believe that the Custom Van guy I will be working with to help me install all of this new stuff (the Orion XS, Smart Shunt, and IP22 with appropriate wiring and fusing) knows what he is doing in this regard...but I will be sure to circle back if that is not the case.

I really do think this will be the best solution for my particular usage profile.

Onward.
David