Batteries and Charging

[deppstein]

This thread is the migration of a thread on Battery Tray Weight Capacity that began under General Chinook.
I am in the process of upgrading my battery capacity and "Smart" charging capabilities in preparation for an upcoming 2+ month coast-to-coast trip at the end of the summer...Boston to Oregon, down the coast to Yosemite and Joshua Tree before heading back East by some sort of southerly route yet to be determined. My current set up is:
--2 Duracell Ultra Group 31 deep cycle wet cell batteries for a combined capacity of 210 Ah
--PD4645 converter/charger
--Alternator charging from a 130 amp alternator that runs through a Blue Sea 7622 separator/combiner to House Batteries
--A Zamp portable array of 210 amps with its own 15 amp Smart controller that can be attached directly to the House Batteries
--A new (Christmas gift from the family) NOCO Genius Pro 50 portable charger that Smart charges at 50 amps with what they call "temperature compensation" Has AGM setting and will charge a 250 amp bank of batteries in about 4.5 hours (assuming AGMs here at 80% discharge)
--I also carry a 1000 watt Honda Inverter generator to charge our electric bikes as needed...it can also be used in conjunction with the NOCO Pro50

The previous thread I mentioned talked about the various battery options I explored--particularly AGM Lifeline Group 31 XT, and Fullriver dc115-12, as well as a detour consideration of Lithium (heated, since whatever batteries I select will stay in the outside battery tray). The thread also talked about the Smart DC_DC options I was exploring (came down to Redarc bcdc1240 and Victron Orion XS). Also talked about where to put this new DC-DC charger. Along the way, I got lots of good, thoughtful advice (thanks Blue Go...and 68 Camaro for getting me started). And, having digested it all, done some more research of my own, and sleeping on things, I'm ready to describe what my new set up is going to look like.

Batteries--I see now that I could go with Lithium...but it doesn't seem like the right move at this time. Cost over AGM is still significantly higher, I don't have constant solar to keep it up easily, the PD4645, though could be altered to put out a constant 14.4 volts by removing the 4-pin plug from the board, doesn't have temp compensation, and I can get close to same capacity with the two Fullriver dc115-12s that I am getting (at 80% discharge--more comments about that in a moment). So not now. I'm 75. Maybe if I was 50 or even 60 with all those Road years ahead of me, but not now. Maybe, if my wife dies before me GOD FORBID, and I take to the Road for months at a time...maybe then. So, my batteries will be a pair of Fullriver dc115-12s with 230 total amp capacity. I know that Blue Go has cautioned me not to get my hopes up too much about the 80% deplete while maintaining power, but the Fullriver tech was pretty clear in thinking I could...here is what they say about it on the website: " The Fullriver Deep Cycle battery uses a different chemistry for the plates active paste material,and a slightly stronger acid. This chemistry allows for a much longer life in deep cycle applications with only a slight reduction in maximum power output." So, we'll see. I'll keep you posted Blue!

Keeping the current PD4645. The tech from Progressive Dynamics has told me that I should not have an issue with charging the Fullrivers with the PD4645, despite the fact that their charging specs don't really match up. The PD4645 puts out 14.4 bulk, 13.6 absorption, and 13.2 float while the Fullriver calls for 14.7 bulk and absorption and 13.6 float. That might have given me real pause, except for the fact that the tech from Fullriver said exactly the same thing. Based on his years of experience and conversations with customers who have this same set up, he has not heard of any issues. But just to be safe, I am going to use my new NOCO Genius Pro50 via shore power or my Honda Generator whenever I can to minimize use of the PD4645. Given my use parameters, I really only need to run through the PD4645 when we want to run the AC (a RARE occasion indeed).

Keeping solar as is. My 210 amps won't fill me up very quickly, if at all. But with its own Smart controller, it can give me something without hurting anything.

And then there is the new DC-DC charging. Blue has talked me off the ledge of getting the Redarc bcdc1240, which I was thinking of getting for its simplicity and fact that it was made for placement in the engine compartment. For all of the reasons he mentioned, I am going to go with the Victron Orion XS...solid, programmable, temperature compensating, and I have an experienced person to install it! AND, thanks again to Blue, I have dropped my idea of putting it in the engine compartment, having found room to mount it on the wall of the battery tray compartment. A happy ending indeed!
I'm excited about these changes and think they will make my up coming trip (future trips as well) much more relaxing without having to worry so much about "Capacity Issues" as my wife calls them. Come to think of it, I think she will be even happier than me!
It will be several weeks before I move to make these changes, so plenty of time for any and all of you to offer additionally comments and suggestion.
David

[deppstein]

Has anyone already replaced the Blue Sea ARC 7622, or Sure Power 1315 for that matter with the Victron Orion XS (or similar) DC-DC charger? I only used my Blue Sea as a power relay between batteries (never hooked it up for start engine Boost). I had an RV shop do the install, and since they have subsequently gone out of business (was an old time Mom and Pop), I can’t ask them about how it was wired exactly. My understanding from the research I’ve done is that the ARC was wired directly to Start and House batteries with common ground (nothing to do with the LVD). Is that correct? And can I therefore just remove the old unit, cap the wires and hook the new Victron up by running new 6 awg/fused wires to each battery with ground to negative terminal of House battery (close since Victron is being installed in that battery cabinet)? Advice please.
Thanks
David

[Blue~Go]

Edited to add: Maybe read the part below the asterisks first, which maybe I should have put at the top.

Okay, so there is a lot here.

Summarizing as I understand it:

1) You are changing your house batteries to a pair of Full River AGM, which require a 14.7volt Absorption charge (at 77ºF, presumably.

2) You plan to do a lot of driving, which should mean lots of alternator charging. It would seem this would be your primary charging source at the time of day when the most charging typically occurs (morning).

3) Your solar is only portable panels, so that's only when not driving.

4) You're keeping the PD4645. Does this have temperature compensation? If so, then there is a point to making sure charging voltages can be correct. Without temp comp.... IMO it doesn't really matter (as those voltage specs are only for when the batteries are at 77ºF, which in my experience they will typically not be).

5) You have a NOCO Genius Pro50 for charging via shore power or from a Honda Generator. Questions:

1) Does this have adjustable charging parameters?
2) Does it have temperature compensation?

Could you could either confirm or set me straight on any of the above?

Keeping the current PD4645. The tech from Progressive Dynamics has told me that I should not have an issue with charging the Fullrivers with the PD4645, despite the fact that their charging specs don't really match up. The PD4645 puts out 14.4 bulk, 13.6 absorption, and 13.2 float while the Fullriver calls for 14.7 bulk and absorption and 13.6 float.

I think you probably have the bulk thing wrong/backwards for the PD4645. Basically, bulk is just constant current (which in our case is usually just all the amps the charging source can put out) and rising voltage (as the batteries charge). So there is no specific voltage for that. Absorption is that point at which that changes to constant voltage (say 14.4) and decreasing current, which is how the last 15% or so of the batteries are filled. So that's likely the 14.4 volts of the PD4645 (i.e. absorption not bulk) (I take it that's not settable?) That voltage spec will be at 77ºF. So unless you have temperature compensated charging, your voltages will be way off anyway 99% of the time (my batteries have rarely ever been at 77ºF when charging, especially when they were large hunks of lead).

Does the PD4645 have temperature compensation?

As you're probably gathering: Temp comp is really important for any type of lead acid battery! But if you don't have that, then everything will be inaccurate anyway, so no sense sweating the details of voltages. Just give it what you've got and replace the batteries when they die (which will be sooner).

That might have given me real pause, except for the fact that the tech from Fullriver said exactly the same thing. Based on his years of experience and conversations with customers who have this same set up, he has not heard of any issues.

That's true in a way. You shouldn't expect any specific issues, like an explosion. The batteries just won't last anywhere near as long. No-one is going to call up the PD people to bring that up though (it's too vague), so they wouldn't hear about it.

Keeping solar as is. My 210 amps won't fill me up very quickly, if at all. But with its own Smart controller, it can give me something without hurting anything.

If your solar controller has adjustable charging parameters and temperature compensation then it will be your highest quality charging. But if you are on the road a lot, then you'll likely be driving mornings, so maybe not using it for the main charge source since you maybe wouldn't set that out until afternoon (?).

And then there is the new DC-DC charging. Blue has talked me off the ledge of getting the Redarc bcdc1240, which I was thinking of getting for its simplicity and fact that it was made for placement in the engine compartment. For all of the reasons he mentioned, I am going to go with the Victron Orion XS...solid, programmable, temperature compensating, and I have an experienced person to install it!

Glad you won't be mounting it in with the engine. These things derate with heat, and just... why.

One point is that you will want to add something to the Orion to sense the temps of the batteries. I know, there is a temp sensor on the Orion itself, but that's not enough, IMO. (Even Victron says it's not useful if it's not at the temp of the batteries) I'll explain:

In my original re-do setup, I had a Morningstar MPPT controller. Good unit. It did have a built in temp sensor, but I overrode that with their optional ON-battery-post temp sense to control the charging voltages (higher when below 77º with a graduated factor; lower when warmer). This basically takes the temperature of the lead. With the Morningstar display, I could see both the temperature of the controller (i.e. the figure the controller *would* have used if I had not installed a separate temperature probe), and the actual battery temperature (with the added probe). What a difference! Typically when I was doing most of my charging (in the morning up until noonish) the batteries were MUCH colder than the controller itself. Even though they were like 5" apart. Hunks of lead have a lot of mass, and all night to cool down. (And this was under my couch, not even outside.) Had I used the built in temperature sensor, my batteries would have been undercharged every single day, and would have died prematurely. And it was mounted literally to the same "wall" that the batteries were up against. Couldn't have gotten any closer (but it senses the air, which warms up a LOT faster than 70# of lead).

*************************************

It will be several weeks before I move to make these changes, so plenty of time for any and all of you to offer additionally comments and suggestion.
David

I see you have an additional post below this one with Orion questions. And I will read that next.

But let me back up and say something. Now this is just my thoughts, and you should do what you want, of course.
And maybe I will change my thoughts based on new information from your response to my questions above.

I'm thinking just keep what you have (but add the new batteries), hook your ACR 7622 back up, and roll. Why?

I know you ride bicycles. I'm not much of a bicyclist so pardon any embarrassing mistakes here, but let's say I had a Huffy, and I came on your bicycling forum and said "Hey, I want to get this $800 set of carbon fiber wheels, so that my Huffy will be a performance bike. What do you think? Which size should I get?"

I mean, I'm sure you would be nice about it, and there is nothing WRONG with getting carbon fiber wheels, but..... it's still going to be a Huffy. NOT that you can't get some great riding in on a Huffy, but the carbon wheels would be kind of "unbalanced" with the rest of it. So I'm thinking you would say "Well, why not just keep your Huffy for now. Ride and enjoy. If you do want to put something into it, go for some good safety gear (a good helmet, gloves) (analogous to proper fusing...). Then when you want to raise your whole bicycle experience, either buy a really great bike outright, or... buy a quality used bike and then improve it as you go along with a balanced set of upgraded components."

That's kind of the feeling I'm getting here. I mean, the Orion is great --- and I'm not saying you shouldn't get it (see next post), but.... it seems a little out of balance with the rest of your system, and won't even be putting in the correct voltages without remote temperature compensation (which in this case would require a Victron battery monitor and battery temp sensor in a Smart Network) (of course a battery monitor is great to have anyway).

I hope I don't sound like a wet blanket or too critical. As you can see I waited a while to respond, not sure exactly how "real" to be. No one wants to rain on someone's parade.

[Blue~Go]

Has anyone already replaced the Blue Sea ARC 7622, or Sure Power 1315 for that matter with the Victron Orion XS (or similar) DC-DC charger?

I have gone from ACR to Orion, though in something other than my Chinook (because in the Chinook I went from the 1315 to a manual switch, and now to the Orion XS - skipped the 7622).

I only used my Blue Sea as a power relay between batteries (never hooked it up for start engine Boost).

Just so you know, without some extra wiring/switch, you would not be able to "self jump start" from the Orion either, because it is a one-way device. And if you did want to do that, the wire would need to be much larger than just for charging (because charging is 50 amps max; jump starting is closer to 250 amps). Sounds like that's not a priority for you anyway, since you don't have it now (I think I used mine once, and it was not anything critical where I couldn't have just done it another way with slightly less convenience).

I had an RV shop do the install, and since they have subsequently gone out of business (was an old time Mom and Pop), I can’t ask them about how it was wired exactly. My understanding from the research I’ve done is that the ARC was wired directly to Start and House batteries with common ground (nothing to do with the LVD). Is that correct? And can I therefore just remove the old unit, cap the wires and hook the new Victron up by running new 6 awg/fused wires to each battery with ground to negative terminal of House battery (close since Victron is being installed in that battery cabinet)? Advice please.
Thanks
David

We can't know what they did, but typically the ACR would be "inserted" into a wire run that goes between the start battery positive post and the house battery positive post (with proper fusing at each end, since there is a battery full of amps ready to pour out into a short circuit at each end).

Chinook did not fuse the original wire that went from the start positive post to the 1315, and thence to the house positive post. They really couldn't, because the wire was too small to be protected by any fuse that would withstand the self-jump start. Not recommended.

My guess is that the RV shop just used the same small wire. (I can't remember right now, but I think it was 6AWG.)

I upgraded mine to 1/0, which allowed me to fuse it to the correct amperage, while also withstanding a jump start. However if you are absolutely not self jump starting (which you can't do with an Orion unless you do some special wiring/switch), then that's not necessary, and you could just go with the 4AWG (max an Orion will accept). Even 6AWG would be fusable for 80 amps, there would just be more wasted energy (see below).

I ran a quick voltage drop calc on 18' of 4AWG wire at 50 amps and it's still a pretty horrifying 4.x% (that's way too much!) (6AWG would be almost 7%), BUT because the Orion would be close to your house bank, that would only manifest itself as wasted power from the alternator (Orion would pump out the correct voltage, which would just be more "work" for it, meaning more heat and some alternator power being wasted). Again, temp comp would be important though, because without temp comp the voltages will be wrong most of the time even with the Orion.

So, if you are leaving everything else pretty much as you have it, I would probably just keep the ACR, but I would re-wire with something big enough to fuse safely (and fuse it at both battery posts, start and house - I used an MRBF holder/fuse on my start battery and there is plenty of clearance between the Group 65 and the hood). Unless you set up a battery monitor and temp comp on the Orion (which is nice, and would also give your solar controller temp comp if it is a Victron unit), I would likely just keep the ACR, but consider moving it into the house area and running some decent wire plus fusing it.

OTOH, I'm guessing that alternator charging will be the majority of your charging (sounds like you will be on the move?) so it could be worth doing the best job on that (?). In that case I would add the following:

1) Orion XS
2) 4AWG positive wire from start batt positive, to Orion, thence to house bank positive.
3) MRBF holder on the start positive terminal with ~100a fuse.
4) MRBF holder on the house positive terminal with ~100a fuse (or could be another type of fuse if you don't have the height for an MRBF but should have a high enough AIC rating, which MRBF does and many others do not).
5) Either a full length 4AWG negative from Start batt to Orion to House bank, or a 4AWG pigtail from start to chassis and house to chassis (or you could make those 6AWG and make your fuses 80amp).
6) Victron BMV-712 battery monitor (could use Smart Shunt but I would chose 712) - this will give you temp comp and a Smart Network, and also allow you to monitor your house batteries' charge level)
7) Victron on-battery temperature sensor for BMV 712 (without this the temp comp won't work effectively).
8) Download free Victron Connect app to computer, smart phone, tablet, or more than one of the above.

Okay, sorry because some of this is a repeat, but it's after midnight so I'm running out of steam to edit and organize it better

On RV's, typically the frame is used for the negative ("chassis ground"), though you will still want a "matching" (to whatever size wire your fuse will be sized to protect) wire lead from the house negative to the frame, and from the Ford start battery negative to the frame (this is originally a smallish wire - on mine it was in the forward/outer corner beside the battery and needed upsizing). Or of course there is nothing wrong (and some benefit) to simply running a full length negative wire along with the positive one.

Do be sure that the small negative wire from the ACR to ground is fused with what Blue Sea recommends (it's a small blade fuse type). This is important because that wire is way too small for the fuses on the big positive wires to protect it. If you are going to re-install the ACR and they didn't give you the instructions, Blue Sea has them for download.

PS: One nice carrot for if you ever go to LFP house batteries: They don't require temperature compensation! (Of course, there are other things they do require, but you would never have to hear me type the words "temperature compensation" again )

Note that I'm not necessarily suggesting you do go to LFP. IMO, that really should go along with an upgrade of the whole system (there are even MORE amps to fly out if not fused, it's best not to have them outside, etc.). Like with the bicycle analogy, it's about balance.

PS: Oh, on the old 1315 wires, I would at least remove them from BOTH ends (start and house battery), so they are 100% not powered (vs. just "capping" them but leaving them connected to the batteries where they would be live). It's always nicer not to have old wire in there floating around, but.... at least you don't want it to be live.

[deppstein]

Blue…thanks for taking the time to respond in such detail…not viewed as “raining on my parade” in the least! To the contrary, I am seeking this sort of useful feedback. And I’ll trust that your decision to stay up past bedtime (mine at least) is a willful and not obligatory choice.
It is going to take me a day or two to fully digest and cogitate on what you have laid out here…but, rest assured I will come back to share responses and revised plans in light of all the good information you have provided. Stay tuned!
David

[Blue~Go]

Hi David,

Thanks for such a nice response. I'm glad you took it in the spirit I intended. We can always clarify more as we go along.

I also realized one thing I didn't ask you: Will you be primarily traveling "power post to power post" --- or will you be doing some dry camping? Reason I ask is with dry camping, you typically start out in the morning with lower battery SOC, so most of your big charging is in the morning until Noon or so. (This could be a plus for having a good alternator charging system with the Orion etc.)

On the other hand, if you are generally staying in campgrounds with hookups, then you will be doing much charging in the evening and overnight, and starting your drive each day with already full batteries (which might mean it would be better to upgrade "shore" charging.... if only upgrading one leg of the system).

BG

[Blue~Go]

I wanted to mention one more thing, which is that apparently it's possible to use a Victron Smart Battery Sense with the Orion as an alternate temp sense device. Last night I just glanced at the SBS manual and it said it was for MPPT controllers, but today I double checked because it didn't make sense to me why it wouldn't also work with an Orion.

That said, I wouldn't recommend that route anyway. I would much prefer a BMV (real battery monitor) and lug temp sense combo. Why? Well as you may have noticed (ha ha), the temp sense is important. The SBS is a piece of plastic that sticks to the plastic case of your battery to sense its temperature. Whereas the temperature sensor of the BMV is a metal lug that goes right onto the battery post. To my mind, that's going to sense the true temperature of your hunks of lead more accurately. Plus, having a battery monitor is great (and the prices are much better than they used to be).

Anyway, just wanted to mention that, because I didn't bring up the SBS last night because I had to do a little more research on it (I've always used the BMV plus lug).

While we are on the topic though, if you are sticking with lead acid batteries for awhile, I can HIGHLY recommend the simple "Smart Gauge" (the square black one with red lit up numbers, from Balmar). This thing is super easy to install and gives you dead accurate SOC. I had one for a decade and loved it. Sadly, it can't be used with LFP batteries, so I've had to give mine up. So that could be used for SOC if you didn't want to add a shunt (then maybe the SBS would make sense).

[deppstein]

OK...I'll take a look at the "Smart Gauge" from Balmar, in addition to a closer look at the SBS. It is this part of my "newish" system (battery monitoring/direct temp sensing) that I am most on the fence about...the rest, I think, is falling into place nicely.
So, let me start by answering/clarifying your assumptions:

1--yes, I am definitely upgrading to a bank of two Fullriver dc115-12 deep cycle AGMs with combined capacity of 230 Ah
2---yes, we will be doing a lot of driving...not every day, all day by any means--this is a "no-agenda" cross-country and we will follow our whims--but still, lots of driving so alternator will be a significant part of the charging regimen. Let me also address your subsequent question here about "post-to-post" vs. dry camping. In general, we tend to dry camp...think prettiest campsites we can find rather than be limited to Shore Power.
3--yes, only portable solar...210 watts with 15 amp 5-stage charger (not temp compensating!)
4--yes, keeping the PD4645...Note: This is a 3-stage charger, and it does not have temp compensation. I also double-checked the charge values, and can confirm that Absorption is 13.6 with float at 13.2 (I'll explain my "work around" this later).
5--I did say that I was given a NOCO Genius Pro 50 for Christmas...but that, thanks to your CORRECT EMPHASIS on TEMPERATURE COMPENSATION, is being returned...though a smart charger with good AGM settings, the settings are not programmable and there is no "real temperature compensation...only some haphazard explanation from NOCO about it sensing the temp and adjusting the "timing" of the various stages. Didn't fly with me. So, new piece of info: I am replacing the NOCO piece of my puzzle with a Victron Blue Smart IP65 12/25amp charger that is both programmable and actually temperature compensating. Stay tuned to how that plays into my plan for Shore Power Charging.
6--last thing to confirm--I don't care about the Jump Start Boost.

I liked your Huffy Bike analogy...but I'd say what I am doing is more akin to what I did when I took my old trusty solid steel framed Jamis and added the electric Copenhagen Wheel to it. Solid bones to an electric ride that made me feel like I was 30 again! It's not as light, or dialed as the new Specialized Turbo Vado SL that weighs 27 lbs and goes 70 miles on a charge...but it still works for me! I'm sort of hoping for the same thing here. To put it another way--I'm hoping I'll feel like I'm sailing a Laser instead of a Sunfish.

First off, let me say that I going to take your advice and implement as many of your wiring and fusing suggestions as I can. All GOOD! Great Thanks. Now, I'll run through my thinking on the other stuff.

Alternator Charging--Critical and therefore I want it to be better than it is with just a ARC. For this I have settled on the Victron Orion XS with its robust programming capability and real temperature compensation. I will place it in the battery tray box, so it will be close to batteries to minimize voltage drop on that end. For the run from Start Bat to the Orion, I will use a new direct 4 awg...and make sure everything is properly grounded. I understand that the a bit of the Alternator charge will go missing, and that the Orion will have to work a little harder...oh well is how I am feeling about that. Only thing left to resolve, as mentioned at the outset, is whether or not I add the battery monitoring/direct temp sensing...that's a "still to be determined" item. I certainly understand the wisdom of putting monitor/sensor in...just not sure how critical it is given that I do have the Orion in proximity now with its real temp compensation ability. And since the major consequence is less battery life, maybe this time around I'll see how it goes without it...learn my lesson for next time around. At least I'm not shelling out the Big Bucks for Lithium...and, let's not forget I'm 75...were I 50, with years and years on the Road ahead of me, I might be thinking differently.

Portable solar--I think of it as a topper, a maintainer for when we spend several days at one campsite and it can run all day while we are out hiking, biking, kayaking, or Deborah fly fishing.

Shore Power and keeping the PD4645--As I said, I believe I''ve come up with a good solution for Smart, temp compensating charging that by-passes the need for the PD4645, but keeps it on hand for those rare occasions when we want AC, or the cold nights when I don't want to worry about the fan blower motor from the heater sucking me dry. To wit--I'm going to get the Victron Blue Smart IP65 charger in lieu of my returned NOCO Genius Pro 50. The 25 amp power of this unit won't charge the batteries as quickly as the NOCO, but it has the distinct advantage of being Programmable and truly TEMP COMPENSATING! I will mount an outlet cover on outside of the battery bay to hold the quick connect that will be permanently wired (M8 eyelets)j and fused so that all I have to do is plug it in and connect it to either Shore Power or the Honda 1000. Oh, and have I mentioned that it cost about $400 less than the NOCO Pro 50?!

I'll pause here for now to see what you or others have to say...and to go do more digging into the suggestion of Balmar "Smart Gauge" and the SBS.
Cheers,
David

[Blue~Go]

OK, now I'm getting a better idea of your use-case scenario.

I always feel like planning these things is sort of a process of circling around, and each circle gets a little tighter as you refine things (or sometimes you cut across )

OK...I'll take a look at the "Smart Gauge" from Balmar, in addition to a closer look at the SBS. It is this part of my "newish" system (battery monitoring/direct temp sensing) that I am most on the fence about...the rest, I think, is falling into place nicely.

Actually I'm kind of leaning back toward a BMV/lug temp sense, given that I'm guessing you won't want to buy both (but more on that below)

So, let me start by answering/clarifying your assumptions:

1--yes, I am definitely upgrading to a bank of two Fullriver dc115-12 deep cycle AGMs with combined capacity of 230 Ah
2---yes, we will be doing a lot of driving...not every day, all day by any means--this is a "no-agenda" cross-country and we will follow our whims--but still, lots of driving so alternator will be a significant part of the charging regimen. Let me also address your subsequent question here about "post-to-post" vs. dry camping. In general, we tend to dry camp...think prettiest campsites we can find rather than be limited to Shore Power.

Okay, good to know. I prefer dry camping myself. I like more quiet and privacy.

3--yes, only portable solar...210 watts with 15 amp 5-stage charger (not temp compensating!)

Ha ha, sorry you now have to know that. So.... the charging voltages won't be very accurate, but at least your batteries are more likely to be around 77ºF when the solar is out (or at least I would assume alternator charging might tend more to mornings as you head out for the day...). But hey, you could always change that solar controller!

4--yes, keeping the PD4645...Note: This is a 3-stage charger, and it does not have temp compensation. I also double-checked the charge values, and can confirm that Absorption is 13.6 with float at 13.2 (I'll explain my "work around" this later).

Wow, okay, that's ten times more useless than I thought for charging (especially with the loooooooooong skiiiiiiiinny wire run Chinook used between this and the house bank. It goes up over the windows! I joyfully got rid of that whole "brown box," but I understand why you might not want to since they have it all tied in with the 120v breakers, and the DC fuses. Yeah, that's basically just going to float your batteries so you can use power while you are plugged in without going down in SOC. That "absorption" would be laughable if it weren't so sad.

5--I did say that I was given a NOCO Genius Pro 50 for Christmas...but that, thanks to your CORRECT EMPHASIS on TEMPERATURE COMPENSATION, is being returned...though a smart charger with good AGM settings, the settings are not programmable and there is no "real temperature compensation...only some haphazard explanation from NOCO about it sensing the temp and adjusting the "timing" of the various stages. Didn't fly with me.

Good on you!

So, new piece of info: I am replacing the NOCO piece of my puzzle with a Victron Blue Smart IP65 12/25amp charger that is both programmable and actually temperature compensating. Stay tuned to how that plays into my plan for Shore Power Charging.

Now you are opening up an interesting possibility -- more on that below.

6--last thing to confirm--I don't care about the Jump Start Boost.

That makes it a lot easier to have a properly fused, perfectly adequate charging wire between the Start and house bank. The stakes (and wire size) go way up when you are trying to make that same wire do a 225+ amp jump start. Now you are looking at about 60 amps absolute max. 4AWG and say an 80a fuse will be just fine for that. While you are in there, take a look and see if you have the height (and post) for an MRBF fuse holder on the house bank positive post. Then you could have two matching fuse holders/fuses on both ends (easier to carry spares). As an added bonus then there is no length of wire unfused ("on the way" to the fuse), because those mount right on the battery posts.

I liked your Huffy Bike analogy...but I'd say what I am doing is more akin to what I did when I took my old trusty solid steel framed Jamis and added the electric Copenhagen Wheel to it. Solid bones to an electric ride that made me feel like I was 30 again!

Well that's it. You want your additions to be more of an upgraded Jamis and less of a Huffy with a couple of gewgaws stuck on And hey, now that you are 30 again no problem with upgrading your system

To put it another way--I'm hoping I'll feel like I'm sailing a Laser instead of a Sunfish.

Or a Snark that you thought was a Laser.

First off, let me say that I going to take your advice and implement as many of your wiring and fusing suggestions as I can. All GOOD! Great Thanks. Now, I'll run through my thinking on the other stuff.

I like that you are open to at least considering changes. It sure can be crazymaking when you aren't sure which way to go, and what is hype vs. solid stuff.

Alternator Charging--Critical and therefore I want it to be better than it is with just a ARC. For this I have settled on the Victron Orion XS with its robust programming capability and real temperature compensation.

Sounds great. But keep in mind that the inbuilt temp comp on the Orion (even the amazing Orion) is not going to be useful with hunks of lead that essentially live outside. Where would it work? Well let's say you had these same hunks of lead in room that was climate-controlled to 70º around the clock. Then the lead hunks would also be at a pretty steady 70º. So when the Orion woke up and sniffed the air (which is essentially what the built in temp comp sensor does), it would say "Okay, 70º - I will adjust my voltages accordingly."

But when you have hunks of lead that were just outside all night (or even under the couch, in my experience), the Orion wakes up and sniffs the air and says "Okay, 60º, I will adjust my voltages accordingly." Only your hunks of lead are at 45º.... and thus you will be chronically undercharging (voltages too low).

Is it the end of the world? No, your batteries just won't last as long. But.... having bought the Orion and upgraded the wiring and batteries, you are SO CLOSE. You are up to the Sunfish from the Snark. But go Laser!

I will place [the Orion] in the battery tray box, so it will be close to batteries to minimize voltage drop on that end. For the run from Start Bat to the Orion, I will use a new direct 4 awg...and make sure everything is properly grounded. I understand that the a bit of the Alternator charge will go missing, and that the Orion will have to work a little harder...oh well is how I am feeling about that.

Agree. That bit of loss is no problem in this case. Now if it were solar, sure, because solar is so meager anyway that you hate to waste a precious drop. But "wasting" a bit of alternator power is not such a problem. Because of how you will set it up, the house bank will never know about it, because the Orion will output correct charging voltages.

Only thing left to resolve, as mentioned at the outset, is whether or not I add the battery monitoring/direct temp sensing...that's a "still to be determined" item. I certainly understand the wisdom of putting monitor/sensor in...just not sure how critical it is given that I do have the Orion in proximity now with its real temp compensation ability.

See above about sniffing the air, vs. big hunks of lead that were just outside all night.

And since the major consequence is less battery life, maybe this time around I'll see how it goes without it...learn my lesson for next time around. At least I'm not shelling out the Big Bucks for Lithium...and, let's not forget I'm 75...were I 50, with years and years on the Road ahead of me, I might be thinking differently.

Oh come on, you are LIKE 50 I bet. Still cranking out miles on the bikes

But seriously, either choice can work. It's just that you are SO CLOSE.

Portable solar--I think of it as a topper, a maintainer for when we spend several days at one campsite and it can run all day while we are out hiking, biking, kayaking, or Deborah fly fishing.

Right. Agree. As long as you are not spending a week sitting still (most times) then that's perfect.

Shore Power and keeping the PD4645--As I said, I believe I''ve come up with a good solution for Smart, temp compensating charging that by-passes the need for the PD4645......To wit--I'm going to get the Victron Blue Smart IP65 charger in lieu of my returned NOCO Genius Pro 50. The 25 amp power of this unit won't charge the batteries as quickly as the NOCO, but it has the distinct advantage of being Programmable and truly TEMP COMPENSATING!

See below (ha ha, yes I'm a broken record!). I maybe have an idea that can tie it all together.

Okay, so you are going to have the OrionXS, all nicely wired in with 4AWG and proper fusing. Good!
Now you are adding a Victron IP65.... but I have another suggestion, for sort of a package deal that would give you TRUE temp comp (and voltage compensation) on both your Orion and your shore charging. And which could be added to solar if you ever changed controllers (or not).

So Victron has this thing called a Smart Network. Not all of their devices are Smart Network capable, but the Orion is, and so is the IP22 charger (goes up to 30 amps). (I don't believe the IP65 is though.)

So here would be a scenario:

1) You install the Orion XS
2) You install a Victron BMV 712 (or Smart shunt; I happen to like the 712 but either way).
3) You install the temperature sensor for #2 (this is just two wires that click right into the shunt and then have a lug on the other end that you put on your positive house battery terminal).
4) You go with a Victron IP22 30 amp shore charger.

5) You download the (free ) Victron Connect App on your laptop, phone, or tablet (or more than one of the above).

The app lets you easily and clearly see what everything is doing, and it also lets you see all the settings, change them, change them again if you learn something, etc. AND, in the settings for each device will be a place you can say "Okay, join my Smart Network" Let's say you name it "Copenhagen" and your chargers "Laser"

The Smart Network knows the voltage AT THE BATTERY, and the temperature of the battery (through the metal lug, not by sniffing the air). So let's say you set your IP22 or your Orion for 14.7 volts absorb. Now the Smart Network sees that oh, okay, the batteries are 20ºF colder than the air, and the air is 60ºF. It then adjusts the charging voltages to be the equivalent of 14.7 at 40ºF (which is higher because it's colder).

Now let's say the IP 22 or the Orion have a little bit (or more) of voltage drop in the wire, despite your best efforts. Well, because the Smart Network knows the exact voltage going into the battery, it adjusts for that too (so your Orion or IP22 put out a bit higher volage, but by definition it's the exact correct voltage (that you set in the parameters) at the batteries. Pretty slick.

The Victron Connect app also gives you lots of stuff you can (but don't have to) look at. Daily charging and use totals, lowest voltage, etc. I'll add some screenshots below. There is absolutely no need to be a slave to it, but you can look at it whenever you want to, and it can be good for troubleshooting if there is any problem.

BTW, the IP22 charger is a little less of a "portable" style (though it's still small - I actually carry one with me in a small plastic tub for various portable type uses) but I prefer it to the IP65 when possible. First of all, it's a metal case vs. plastic. Second, it has ventilation and an optional fan for cooling (meaning it has a fan, but you can put it into "night mode" if you don't want the fan to run). Third, I don't think the IP65 has Smart Network capability (from what I can tell at the moment). It will also get you a few more amps (it comes in a 30-amp variety.

Screenshots in next post.

[Blue~Go]

I'm going to get the Victron Blue Smart IP65 charger... I will mount an outlet cover on outside of the battery bay to hold the quick connect that will be permanently wired (M8 eyelets)j and fused so that all I have to do is plug it in and connect it to either Shore Power or the Honda 1000. Oh, and have I mentioned that it cost about $400 less than the NOCO Pro 50?!

Maybe I'm not visualizing this correctly, but if you connect the charger directly to shore power, I think you'll be "going around" your main shorepower breakers and sub-breaker in the rig. Not saying you will immediately die, but as another idea, what about plugging it into an outlet in the Chinook (which does go through your 30a main breaker and the 15a outlets breaker). Perhaps you are thinking the outlets breaker already has too many loads. I hear you; but then 30 amps of DC charging will only be drawing just over 2 amps of AC power (vs. your 15-amp outlets breaker capacity). IIRC the microwave (outlet) is on a separate breaker.

You could hardwire into the brown box, but that's getting complicated and ..... that whole brown box system is just annoying!

PS: I have been thinking about getting a Honda 1000 (because I can run my AirCon from one) and boy, they are getting harder to find and --- annoyingly -- are basically the price of the 2200. But I've lugged my friend's 2200 around a few times, and no thank you. I also think I could fit the Honda 100 in the former generator compartment, along with my AirCon which is in there already (of course taking it out if I were going to use it). 2200 would never fit.

I'll likely put it off unless or until I spend another summer in a hot climate, because otherwise I have no need for a generator.