Check engine light (again)

[SMan]

Took a trip to Eastern Washington during the week. The infamous check engine light came on about 125 miles into the trip. (Some of you may remember my previous thread last fall about a CEL) It acted the same as the last time this happened. A slight miss at idle but otherwise ran decent. I was talking with a friends contractor while in Eastern WA and his friend had a similar issue with a V10 in a pickup and he had all plugs changed and hasn't had an issue since.

I scanned my engine today with my Blue Driver tool and these were the codes.


This time it indicates cylinder 2.

The last time this happened Ford changed #4 plug and charged $158. I asked why they didn't change all or at least give me the option but they just fixed what the scan said. Fair enough but I would never change (1) plug. The claim they do it regularly. This time I will insist on all plugs being changed.

Since we moved I guess I'll give the local Ford dealer here a shot and report back. (I really don't want to do this myself as I hear there are a number of challenges with the V10.)

[Blue~Go]

I know of someone who just had (IIRC) that code (or something like it with misses at low speed) and it was indeed a blown plug. If that's the problem, it's not something you want to run with because as I understand it fuel can fill up the cylinder and then you don't have lubrication, which can lead to disaster (I think you may be able to disconnect the injector from that plug? I'm not sure of the details).

If it were me, and that was the issue, I'd have them all Time Serted now (I think that's what they call the product). That's always been my plan if I had such an issue, even with only one plug. (These are something like helicoils that are put in, but they are specially made for the engine.) IIRC the company is something like blown spark plug dot com, and they are in San Diego (but they may sell their product elsewhere).

I'd have been like you: Not super keen on only having one done. It can be hard to argue with the dealer though, when they have the "but this is what we've done hundreds of times" line. (Funny they wouldn't want to make more money though.)

BG

PS: I think with post 2003 3-valve engines it can be broken threads vs. blown threads. OTOH, I'm not sure the van got the 3-valve engine at the same time as the trucks (or ever?). In any case, each generation of the modular engine seems to have some flavor of potential spark plug issue.

PPS: Not sure what codes damaged plug coil boots (or whatever they are called) throw. I think that can result in a miss too, but maybe that would be at high speed?

[SMan]

Thanks for your thoughts Blue.
I suppose I'll see what the dealer says. I am going to insist on talking to someone in service other than a "service writer" with minimal mechanical knowledge to clarify my expectations. Having moved to an area I am unfamiliar with I am starting from scratch in terms of knowing what repair facility is trustworthy/reliable.

FWIW I post issues like these in the hope someone else can benefit from my experience. (Good, Bad, or Ugly )

[pdemarest]

Hi Steve - I haven't had this issue with my V-10 but I did have a 1987 Ford E-Series Van conversion years ago that would misfire under load. Took it to my mechanic and then two different Ford dealers. After almost $1500 in "diagnostic fees" and no resolution I was ready to sell it. Then I saw that a local newspaper had a column about auto repairs written by a guy who was teaching at a nearby vocational college. I contacted him and he told me to bring the van in so his students could troubleshoot it as a class project. Dropped it off and got a call the next day. Turns out the two of the spark plug wires were too close to one another and would short out under load. There was a Ford Service Bulletin out on the problem but apparently no one had bothered to check that. The students separated the plug wires with some wire ties and the problem was solved. Might want to check the wire placement out.

[Blue~Go]

The students separated the plug wires with some wire ties and the problem was solved. Might want to check the wire placement out.

I don't think we have plug wires on the V10. I know, I was like "what?!" too, when I found out. I forget the exact terminology, but we have coils on each cylinder (with boots) and they just fire right there on the cylinder they live at. So no distributor or plug wires.

But the basic concept of needing a good shop who will ACTUALLY figure out the problem is so true.

[Scott]

Paul, in your previous van's case, yeah communication between wires will definitely upset things, especially if they're rubbing against valve covers or the intake manifold. Funny how Ford mechanics couldn't figure it out, but a couple kids caught it. Anyway, the motor in your current rig (and Steve's) uses COP ignition (coil on plug), so there are no traditional spark plug wires, just separate coils on each spark plug. But it's good that you mentioned it because the external ignition components are what I would suggest investigating first (easy). In troubleshooting, I've moved coils between cylinders and watched to see if the code follows. If it does, look into the coil. They can fail and they're cheap and not terribly difficult to replace. If the code does not follow, then I'd look for anything obviously askew in the wiring to the coil. Lastly, consider replacing all ten plugs. I think having new plugs installed in a modular Ford engine of this era is a good idea, albeit risky.

(Funny they wouldn't want to make more money though.)

Yeah, you'd think! But they're more interested in reducing liability than they are charging $158 per spark plug.

Steve,
Guessing they only changed the one plug because they were scared to do the others. Key here is finding someone with experience, and someone who has previously extracted a dropped electrode... It's not rocket science or brain surgery, but it's not typical either. And if you want to do the extra step of installing helicoils, then you're in high cotton.

[Blue~Go]

When I bought my previous campervan (v8 modular engine, so same family as V10), it had 95k on it. Oh hey thanks, now *I* get to do the scary spark plug change (recommended at 100k). Oh I was SO, SO nervous about it. As it turned out I took it to a one-mechanic shop in the middle of Montana (due to trailer issue), but it turned out to be the perfect chance to do my plugs. He was patient and conscientious. We blew out the plug wells the day before, then hit each one with Kroil (a getter-unstucker spray) just as good practice. Then of course half the engine was removed (or so it seemed ) and then he gently eased each plug out. No guarantees of course, but they did each come out with no problems, then he put the new ones in just as carefully.

I sold it a year-and-a-half later with 130k, and the next owner (a friend) sold it like three years later with something like 175k -- no problems with those plugs.

When I bought the Chinook it only had 49k on it, but I had the plugs done right away at a Ford dealer (was traveling, no good shop as in the above case). Not sure I would do it that way again, but at least so far (four years, 25k), no problems.

If/when I have an issue now, I think I'd choose to go to the mechanics in San Diego that specialize in the inserts. Just to have complete peace of mind (then I can worry about OTHER things ).

Scott: COP, that's it - thanks, now I don't have to sit bolt upright at 3 a.m. suddenly remembering it. And agreed doing the coils/boots (or at least investigating them) might not be a bad step.

[pdemarest]

Scott - "no spark plug wires". Next thing you know I'll be advising S-Man to use less manual choke on the carburetor or telling him to be careful with the hand crank starter! Those things do kick!

A few years back I had an old 97 Mercury Sable with DOHC motor. Took it to a shop to have the spark plugs replaced when it hit 100,000 miles. It was $450 plus the cost of the plugs. Apparently it would have been more but the guy had rigged up a tool to remove the rear plugs without taking the intake manifold off. I'm still stuck in the days when you could practically stand next to your motor there was so much room under the hood.

[SMan]

Great now you guys have me really nervous....
I agree Scott. Would be great to be in High Cotton. Finding a reputable shop can be a crap shoot.
I am having a few health challenges but will jump back on this soon and report back.

[Blue~Go]

Scott - "no spark plug wires". Next thing you know I'll be advising S-Man to use less manual choke on the carburetor or telling him to be careful with the hand crank starter! Those things do kick!

Ha, too funny

PS: Don't forget spare tubes for your tires