Batteries and Charging

[Blue~Go]

I'm back with a question about how to get the best temperature sensing for charging from the batteries in the case of my build (Orion XS and IP22). I was planning on using the remote temp sensor attached to the BMV 712's smart shunt for this purpose, but now I have been told by Victron that neither the Orion or the IP22 will be able to automatially adjust temp parameters using that sensor...they simply don't speak to each other.

Wait, who is "Victron" that is telling you this? I don't believe that is correct, but let's go right from their manuals.

The idea here is that you will be using a Victron "Smart Network" to connect your BMV with temp/voltage/amp sense, your IP22 shore charger, and your Orion XS. Your BMV 712 will use the optional temp sensor lead to connect straight to the battery post. This powers the shunt AND senses temp. In fact, you cannot use more than one sensor in a Smart Network (according to the manual) so you can't also have a Smart Battery Sense, or even another BMV with another Sensor.

Below are annotated (I added the colored boxes) excerpts from Victron's "Smart Networking" manual. (Rev 5, Feb 2024 -- newest version). Click to enlarge:

1) Basic concept

2) Further details, specifically calling out how lead acid batteries need their charging voltage adjusted for battery temperature. Again, this is directly from the Smart Networking manual :

3) Smart Networking product compatibility chart, showing the BMV temp sense, the IP22 charger, and the Orion XS:

I use this same system (Victron Smart Network) with a BMV 712 and temp sensor (plus IP22, Orion XS, Smart Solar MPPT's) in a house battery system.

If this is wrong, I'd love to know more.

[Blue~Go]

Working on my electrical upgrade and in need of some advice. What should I do with the wires coming into the battery box (see pictures) that I no longer need?

What I did was remove them all completely. It's just the clean way to go. After all, they aren't coming from miles away or wending through the walls. Basically from the LVD, from the old Surepower (or I presume your ACR), and from the frame.

And does anyone know of a way in which I can use the old 2 awg wire that went from the Blue Sea ARC inside the engine bay to the Battery Box as a snake of some kind to find a good path for the new set of 4 awg wires that will now run from the Start Battery to House Battery Box?

I did this same thing only with 1/0 (groan). That's because at the time I wanted to keep the self-jump start feature so I needed wire large enough to fuse for 225-250 amps (might just go with 4AWG and no SJS if I did it again now).

I didn't need or use a snake or pull wire. I ran the wire from the start battery back to the joint at the back of the hood, then across over the air cleaner (at the rear side of the air cleaner), and then down sort of where the steering column is (I had no need or desire to "detour" over to the fenderwell where the Surepower was). Then just into the battery box (or in my case, up into the area where the LVD was, and to my house bank under the couch). If you need me to look and see exactly where I ran it, let me know. I think I somewhat copied the path of the original wire that went from the Surepower to the house batts, but I can no longer remember for sure. I do remember lying under there thinking about the best route.

I ran the wire in loom, and used cushion clamps where needed/wanted to secure it and keep it from moving anywhere it shouldn't.

While I was under there, I ran a larger negative wire from the house battery negative bus to the frame (in my case, 1/0). Again, loom and cushion clamps where needed.

(By cushion clamps I mean the stainless clamps that have black rubber sort of clipped onto the stainless band. I like the Ancor ones which come in handy boxes for storing for future use.)

[deppstein]

Blue...thanks for your response. Let's take the easy stuff first. Yes, I will give a slight trim to the 6 awg wire from battery into the Distribution Board so that it can fit into the screw terminal. I have some extra length of 6 awg that I can play with to see how much needs to be cut, along with an appropriately sized ferrule to make it all work. I agree, better than using a step-down connector. And I will also adjust the 60 amp fuse I was going to use on that line in the Safety Hub to a 50 amp...maybe even down to 40, which would still give me plenty of leeway since my DC loads will never be close to that all at once.
I will also remove as much of the old wiring as I can. As you said, most are fairly close-by...certainly the old line from the ARC, the 2 lines from the LVD, and the old ground. I'm just not sure how hard I'll work to fully get rid of the old generator line. And yes, I will be running my new pair of 4 awg wires from Start Battery to Battery Box in similar manner as to what you did. I see where it now goes down by the steering column, so should be able to find the route once it warms up enough to get underneath the Rig.
Just a note on old wires for those of you following along who have electric steps. When doing a check of existing lines and what went where, I discovered that the line for the back electric steps was in the with the line from the ARC (original SurePower, then Blue Sea 7622 in my case). I had an inline 25 amp fuse, so pretty easy to identify--in addition to fact that steps stopped working when I disconnected the fuse on that wire.

Now to the meatier stuff of real-time temperature sensing with my new system. I did read the materials you highlighted. I also did as much of my own reading up on the capabilities of the Orion XS, the difference between a Smart Shunt and BMV 712 shunt, the Victron Network, and Battery Smart Sense vs. aux temp sensor that ties to the shunts. I also talked to my installer Eddie about all this...and here is my understanding of what will work and what will not.
A Smart Shunt with an Aux Temperature Sensor will link to the Network in such a way as to provide temperature readings from the battery that the Orion XS, via its network connection can utilize to automatically adjust charging parameters based on battery temp readings. BUT, the BMV 712 shunt with the same Aux Temp Sensor attached will only give temp readings for monitoring, NOT able to be used by the Orion for automatic temp adjustment. That's where the Battery Smart Sense comes it. The Smart Sense, when attached to the battery and activated in the network (bluetooth) DOES provide temp data to the Network that the Orion XS can utilize to make automatic temp adjustments to charging parameters.
The situation is less clear when it comes to the IP22. I have seen and heard conflicting opinions as to whether or not the IP22 is capable of utilizing the readings from the Battery Smart Sense to the Network. It appears that is definitely not the case for IP22's that are not version 2 and were made before 2020. But for those with version 2...I don't have a definitive answer yet--still working on that...including trying to ask directly of Victron (trying to send them a question via their website customer service), and also trying to talk to a Victron sales rep here in the US that Eddie gave me the number of. Stay tuned.
David

[deppstein]

I just got off the phone with a technical rep from a Victron distributor here in the US who was very helpful in walking me through the issue of temperature sensing and automatic charging adjustment for both the Orion XS and IP22 chargers. Bottom Line: Both the regular battery temp sensor (wired to the BMV 712 shunt, OR the Battery Smart Sense (stand alone bluetooth monitoring device) can be used to provide actual battery temperature readings (via VE Smart Network) that both the Orion XS and IP22 can utilize to set temperature compensating charging parameters!

So, I was wrong to say that the Battery Smart Sense was needed to do that...the regular temp sensor will work--in fact, maybe even better since its bluetooth signal comes from the BMV 712 "head" which will be inside the Rig and not in the battery compartment (as would be the case with the Battery Smart Shunt device sitting on the battery). Motto here--Listen to BlueGo...he knows of that about which he speaks! Thanks Blue.
Onward,
David

[Blue~Go]

Thanks for reporting back on the Smart Network. Good to know it works as the manual says it does (mine in real life also seems to follow what the manual says).

[deppstein]

OK! Electrical Charging and Battery Upgrade is complete. I now have 230 amp hours of premium AGM capacity with fully Smart, temperature compensated charging!!!

I picked up the Rig last week from Eddie at Interstate Vans--he did a terrific job of wiring in my new equipment (see pics). To summarize, the new set-up includes:
--Victron IP22 12/30 (1) charger plugged into a newly created outlet that is attached to the top of the "triangular thingy" between the end of the couch and the back of the driver's seat. That outlet is wired directly to the 120v side of the Brown Box (replacing the PD4645).
--Victron Orion XS with dual 4awg run from the start battery (POS to Orion, NEG to Blue Sea Safety Hub). The POS has an inline 60 amp fuse near the start battery, and a 60 amp fuse on the Safety Hub.
--Blue Sea 150 Safety Hub for distribution
--Victron BVM712 with temp sensor. The display head for this unit is tucked in next to the new outlet for the IP22 (low battery alarm basically).
--Victron 150 amp fuse for POS run from Safety Hub to House Battery Bank (2 Group 31 Fullriver dc115-12). Have also wired a Blue Sea disconnect switch to this line.
All wiring is as previously discussed in this post...including the replacement of the "long skinny" that did dual duty from Brown Box through LVD to House Battery Bank with a new straight run 6awg to carry the House Load. The LVD is GONE.
I have also maintained my 210 amp solar (suitcase) connection for solar charging. Additionally can also use my 1000 watt Honda Inverter (quiet) generator with 30 amp adapter plug (and ground plug that Blue mentioned) for additional back-up charging in a pinch.

Thanks to Blue, in particular, for giving me the confidence and guidance tackle this modification. It has breathed new life into my old Rig! I can't wait to hit the Road.
David

[noluck]

always nice when upgrades are done and work as planned, looks great

[Blue~Go]

OK! Electrical Charging and Battery Upgrade is complete. I now have 230 amp hours of premium AGM capacity with fully Smart, temperature compensated charging!!!

Impressive job!

--Victron IP22 12/30 (1) charger plugged into a newly created outlet that is attached to the top of the "triangular thingy" between the end of the couch and the back of the driver's seat. That outlet is wired directly to the 120v side of the Brown Box (replacing the PD4645).

A question on the bolded part above. This may be what you meant, but that outlet should (IMO) be wired to the "Charger" breaker in the brown box. So just like always (before), the AC line to the outlet (that you have the IP22 plugged into) is protected and also it gives you a handy switch for the charger.

The LVD is GONE.

Ding-dong the witch is dead

Thanks to Blue, in particular, for giving me the confidence and guidance tackle this modification. It has breathed new life into my old Rig! I can't wait to hit the Road.

I'm so glad it all worked out. You were always receptive to my ideas (and critiques) and then researched and came back armed with new knowledge and thoughts, which made it fun and rewarding. The photos really show off a tidy system. Congratulations!

Also, (possibly with the addition of a different type of main fuse depending on bank size), LFP ready, should that day come IP22, BMV 712, Orion XS are all ready to play along.

I'm repeating myself, but that is a beautiful, tidy, system.

[deppstein]

Thanks Noluck and Blue for your comments. I never would have tackled this project without the encouragement and advice received via this forum—a sincere testimonial to it’s value…so thank you also to Manitou for keeping us up and running! I hope others will continue to benefit from all the good information that is posted here. After all, our Rigs were built to last! Nice to hear about the creative mods folks are doing to keep em on the Road.
…and, yes, I did tie the IP22 outlet to the Charger Breaker…just like Blue told me to (I mean suggested).
David

[Blue~Go]

...so thank you also to Manitou for keeping us up and running!

Absolutely! Thanks, Manitou.

…and, yes, I did tie the IP22 outlet to the Charger Breaker…just like Blue told me to (I mean suggested).

"Hinted politely"