Chinook RV

deppstein wrote: January 27th, 2025, 9:48 am Blue...you are correct...throughout this discussion, I have been thinking of the PD4645 as the "Brown Box" in its entirety! So, no wonder there have been times throughout this thread that we might have been getting our wires crossed (so to speak!) All those times I was talking about keeping the PD4645, I was talking about maintaining the distribution capabilities and not the battery charging function. So glad you thought to ask and clarify.

Okay, great.

deppstein wrote: January 27th, 2025, 9:48 amThat said, I am going to continue with my described plan of putting the IP22 in the storage next to the battery compartment and run the AC side (15 amp fused with something like the yellow jacket) out from there via my "outlet cover" idea for plugging into either Shore Power or the Honda This will be my Smart source of charging the House Batteries 95% of the time. When doing so, I will still have AC power through my 1000 watt inverter for everything except the air conditioner and plug-in electric heater. For those occasions, I'll plug shore power into its old spot to run through the "Brown Box." I understand that during those times, it will also be charging the batteries (not very smartly)--which, according to my reading, will be OK given that I am doing that only every once in a blue moon (really hot, or really cold). And, I will also address the crazy long wire run from batteries to "Brown Box" to minimize voltage drop.

Sorry to quote that whole big chunk. But now I'm totally confused. I feel like there might be something wrong here.

---How is your inverter wired in? Does it have its own outlet? Do you somehow have the inverter wired in to your main outlets *along with* shorepower? Do you have an inverter sub-panel? How do you keep from having a circular setup where your AC loads can draw off your inverter when you are plugged in? You don't usually want two sources of AC on at the same time (hence the Automatic Transfer switch in the original setup so you can't have shore and gen at the same time). Do you have a multi pole selector switch that you have added? This raised some red flags in my mind. Maybe it's a misunderstanding but could you clarify? Do you have a system drawing you could share?

---Wait... is this an inverter charger? I guess I'm not understanding why ANY AC power would come from your inverter when plugged in (because you already have an AC source that is NOT coming from your batteries). But if it was an inverter charger, you wouldn't be adding an IP22 so that makes no sense.

-- This still seems like an oddly patched, not-so-great, what is the point of it? type of workaround to me. What am I missing? What I mean is it seems unnecessarily hokey and less safe, but what is the advantage? I don't see one? Sorry if this sounds harsh but now that I put my two cents in with ideas I don't want to make it seem like I think something is okay that I now don't understand.

Either I'm not getting something, or there is some type of basic wiring flaw (or I suppose both). Could you show me how this is set up now? Because I can't figure out any way that large quote above makes sense. But I would like to.

deppstein wrote: January 27th, 2025, 9:48 amAnd thanks for the offer to point me in the right direction for making wires...I believe that the Custom Van guy I will be working with to help me install all of this new stuff (the Orion XS, Smart Shunt, and IP22 with appropriate wiring and fusing) knows what he is doing in this regard...but I will be sure to circle back if that is not the case.

Ah okay. No doubt he has a proper crimper. I just worried about you only having a dimple crimper or something a little shakey at home.

That said, I'm a little unsettled if he is going to go for the IP22 plugged-in-separately-through-a-hole setup. I mean a person can do that at home, but a professional should balk at that (?). Mostly because why? I see no advantage, and it seems like more work than doing it the right way; yet it comes with a bunch of haywired type energy and potential bad spots.

I'm not very good at drawings, but do think I can easily explain my inverter set up. My Xantra ProWatt 1000 Inverter sits on the floor behind the driver's seat and is wired directly to the House Batteries via 1/0 cables with a 150 amp fuse. The unit itself has two 120 outlets and a single USB outlet. It has an on/off switch on the unit itself. It is independent of the other House outlets. We use it when not plugged into shore power. And, in new use scenario will use it when the IP22 is charging (via shore or Honda)...for those few occasions I mentioned that I will plug in via the pd4645, we will obviously use the regular outlets and not the Inverter (no reason, as you mentioned). Hope that clarifies. Let me know.

Regarding wire crimping comments and concerns...I've been in his shop and he indeed has what is needed to make proper wiring...like the thick run from Smart Shunt "Battery" to the negative battery terminal, as well as the new 4 awgs tied to the Orion XS going to Start and House, and the new grounds we discussed. In the case of the IP22, he is not really going to be making any cables for that. It has its own 120 wire with 3-prong for plugging into Honda or Shore, and there is a Victron IP22 cable kit (with 50 amp fuse) for attaching the charger to Battery and Shunt. The only "hole" he is going through is the common wall of the large storage area and the battery compartment since shunt is on battery side and IP22 is on the other. The AC cord of the IP22 will be left "as is"...I'm just making the end available for plugging in without having to open the storage hatch.

Hope all of this makes sense...if not, keep those questions coming.
David

deppstein wrote: January 27th, 2025, 11:37 am I'm not very good at drawings, but do think I can easily explain my inverter set up. My Xantra ProWatt 1000 Inverter sits on the floor behind the driver's seat and is wired directly to the House Batteries via 1/0 cables with a 150 amp fuse. The unit itself has two 120 outlets and a single USB outlet. It has an on/off switch on the unit itself. It is independent of the other House outlets.

Okay, this is exactly how I have my Xantrex 1500 inverter set up (same as yours just slightly larger). Only difference is rather than sitting on the floor it is on the "under the bed" side of that mini couch wall and bolted to the mini couch wall.

deppstein wrote: January 27th, 2025, 11:37 amWe use it when not plugged into shore power.

Right. Same here. That's the only time it makes sense (and, so you and I both have to unplug whatever item from the Chinook outlets and plug said item into an inverter inlet. Same same).

deppstein wrote: January 27th, 2025, 11:37 am And, in new use scenario will use it [inverter] when the IP22 is charging (via shore or Honda)...

Okay, this is where I am getting confused. If the IP22 is charging, you by definition have shore/AC power available to you. So you could be using your main Chinook outlets, straight from AC, not the inverter. But instead you are going to NOT plug in the Chinook, and instead only plug in the IP22, and then unplug AC stuff from the Chinook outlets and plug them into your inverter and run your AC loads off your battery bank (via the inverter). Why? Also, then wouldn't your AC loads through the inverter be using up a bunch of your 30 amp charging power to run your AC items for no real reason? It seems unnecessarily wasteful of the IP22's 30 amps of power when AC power is plentiful once you have it at all. You'd be charging slower. Plus having the kludges.

deppstein wrote: January 27th, 2025, 11:37 am ...for those few occasions I mentioned that I will plug in via the pd4645, we will obviously use the regular outlets and not the Inverter (no reason, as you mentioned).

Okay so at those times you would not plug in the IP22, and you would instead plug in the Chinook via the Chinook shore cord to the breakers in the brown box. (Not "through" the PD4645.) So you could either let the 4645 dumb charge your batteries (why), OR you could (and maybe plan to) turn off the charger breaker. That would allow everything to work 100% via AC through the brown box EXCEPT the 4645 charger would be off.

deppstein wrote: January 27th, 2025, 11:37 am Hope that clarifies. Let me know.

It does clarify what you are planning. What I still don't understand is whyyyy? Why would you want all these workarounds (kind of like little notes on the toilet to jiggle the handle or whatever), and why would you want to use up some of your IP22's 30 amp allotment running AC loads off your inverter, when you by definition have an AC source nearby? When the alternative is hooking up the IP22 in place of your existing dumb charger (4645) and having everything work as designed/simply and having all the built in protections and breakers? What would make this other setup more attractive is what I don't get?

deppstein wrote: January 27th, 2025, 11:37 am Regarding wire crimping comments and concerns...I've been in his shop and he indeed has what is needed to make proper wiring...like the thick run from Smart Shunt "Battery" to the negative battery terminal, as well as the new 4 awgs tied to the Orion XS going to Start and House, and the new grounds we discussed.

Excellent. I am always wary just because I have seen so many bad crimps, even by "pros," and the excess heat/resistance caused by a bad crimp is not protected for by fuses or breakers.

deppstein wrote: January 27th, 2025, 11:37 amHope all of this makes sense...if not, keep those questions coming.
David

Thanks for sticking with me here. Appreciate it. I think what this boils down to, for me, as I understand it is..... why do the "workarounds" when doing it the regular way would be cleaner, more efficient, and more protected?

Blue--first of all, your analysis makes perfect sense to me. I see that I am doing a "work around" that is making things more complicated than need be--using power from the batteries (when IP22 is plugged directly into shore power) that could be supplied AC via regular Chinook 30 amp cord. And I don't really have a good answer. One thing I have done is rationalize to myself that with LED lights, frig on propane, and fact that we don't really plug in much more than computers and phones, I'm not really using up too much from the batteries while charging directly through the IP22. But the REAL answer is that I don't know how to go ahead and wire the IP22 to take the place of the PD4645....or to run that thicker wire from "Brown Box" to batteries (...through the LVD, not through the LVD...are there 2 wires?--one for charging, and the other for DC loads???) by myself. And doing that is not in the agreed to scope of work I have discussed with Eddie the Custom Van Guy...he's doing this as a favor to me, and I am working hard to keep it simple so as not to interfere too much with his day job. I will certainly be paying him his shop rate (and then some) for his work, but am being sensitive not to overstay my welcome.

So, I've built my Rube Goldberg system around what I know and can do.

But, now that I've said it out loud, maybe I can "put on my Big Boy Underpants" and move forward with the right solution in two stages...as you describe. Have Eddie do the install of Orion XS, Smart Shunt, and IP22 in adjacent storage bay...And then get someone else (potentially a mobile RV mechanic from the area that I have talked to in the past who seems to know his way around RV's pretty well) to take it from there--properly connect the IP22 to the right place in the Brown Box to replace PD4645 charger, and run the bigger wires from there to batteries, LVD, or whatever. If I were to go that route, I would need some more specific guidance--In particular:

--How would I convert the existing AC cord out of the IP22 to something I could link to the "Brown Box?"
--How do I attach that new cord to the "Brown Box" in place of the PD4645?
--How do I upgrade the skinny wire?...both for charging and dc voltage back?

What say?...AND keep in mind that I don't want to "overstay my welcome" with you or others on the Forum. I welcome advice here, but don't expect it. Seriously. The beauty, for me, of the Forum has been that it has felt like a willing exchange...and I want to keep it that way.
Cheers.
David

deppstein wrote: January 27th, 2025, 2:19 pm Blue--first of all, your analysis makes perfect sense to me. I see that I am doing a "work around" that is making things more complicated than need be--using power from the batteries (when IP22 is plugged directly into shore power) that could be supplied AC via regular Chinook 30 amp cord.

deppstein wrote: January 27th, 2025, 2:19 pm ...the REAL answer is that I don't know how to go ahead and wire the IP22 to take the place of the PD4645....or to run that thicker wire from "Brown Box" to batteries (...through the LVD, not through the LVD...are there 2 wires?--one for charging, and the other for DC loads???) by myself. And doing that is not in the agreed to scope of work I have discussed with Eddie the Custom Van Guy...he's doing this as a favor to me, and I am working hard to keep it simple so as not to interfere too much with his day job. I will certainly be paying him his shop rate (and then some) for his work, but am being sensitive not to overstay my welcome.

So, I've built my Rube Goldberg system around what I know and can do.

Okay, this I understand. When I was re-doing a cabin (many years ago, sadly before youtube or forums), I found myself doing the same thing. That is, I didn't design to the best (or even that good) design, but rather designed to avoid things I didn't know about. So understandable! (I did end up consulting a professional -- back when that was really the only way -- and figuring out a way around my blind spots.)

deppstein wrote: January 27th, 2025, 2:19 pmBut, now that I've said it out loud, maybe I can "put on my Big Boy Underpants" and move forward with the right solution in two stages...as you describe.

deppstein wrote: January 27th, 2025, 2:19 pm Have Eddie do the install of Orion XS, Smart Shunt, and IP22 in adjacent storage bay...

Let's mentally hold off on the IP22 in the storage bay (at least for a few more paragraphs).

deppstein wrote: January 27th, 2025, 2:19 pmAnd then get someone else (potentially a mobile RV mechanic from the area that I have talked to in the past who seems to know his way around RV's pretty well) to take it from there--properly connect the IP22 to the right place in the Brown Box to replace PD4645 charger, and run the bigger wires from there to batteries, LVD, or whatever.

Now I SO wish I had that brown box in front of me! I removed it, so I did touch all the wires (back then). Now trying to remember exactly how it was wired (it wasn't anything super special though, as I remember it).

deppstein wrote: January 27th, 2025, 2:19 pm
--How would I convert the existing AC cord out of the IP22 to something I could link to the "Brown Box?"

Let's circle back to this, but essentially there are two options. I think it would be slick to re-use the "charger" breaker that is already in the brown box. It's there, makes sense, gives you granular control (like say you want to be plugged in but DON'T want or need to charge the batteries), and is organized. So option 1 is to cut the three-prong plug off the end of the IP22 cord and use the three AC wires (it will have black/white/green) to connect to the Charger breaker, just like the 4645 is now.

Option two would be to run the wires from the Charger breaker to a dedicated receptacle box (outlet) and then plug the IP22 into it. Same result. I like this one.

Option three is to just plug the IP22 into an outlet on the Outlets breaker, but why do that when there is a dedicated Charger breaker already there (and the Outlets can easily already fill that breaker's load).

deppstein wrote: January 27th, 2025, 2:19 pm--How do I attach that new cord to the "Brown Box" in place of the PD4645?

The PD4645 has wires now that attach to the "charger" breaker in the brown box (so you either put Option one or Option two there instead - I like option 2). Likewise it has wires that feed the skinny wire. You feed them with wires that come out of the IP22 instead.

deppstein wrote: January 27th, 2025, 2:19 pm--How do I upgrade the skinny wire?...both for charging and dc voltage back?

I'm now thinking back into the mists of time..... a decade....which is when I first re-did my DC distribution. Personally, I removed the LVD because a BMV 712 (or smart shunt) can do the job better. But that I do have some photos of, so let me drag those out and refresh my memory. It may be that "we" just run a larger shorter wire from the brown box to the LVD, if you want to keep the LVD. Let me look in my files and get back to you. I also want to think about.... is the LVD actually doing anything you care about anymore? If so, great. But if not....

But too, are you near your Chinook? If so, feel free to pull the whole front cover off of the brown box and snap a few photos, which we can combine with what I have (will find).

deppstein wrote: January 27th, 2025, 2:19 pmWhat say?...AND keep in mind that I don't want to "overstay my welcome" with you or others on the Forum. I welcome advice here, but don't expect it. Seriously. The beauty, for me, of the Forum has been that it has felt like a willing exchange...and I want to keep it that way.

Actually this is better, IMO. I had a touch of "maybe I shouldn't have gotten involved" when it looked like there were going to be lots "first jiggle this, then do that" notes on the toilet flush handle. This is better

PS: Oh right I said let's hold off on the IP22 in the storage bay. Here's why I said that.

Now on the one hand, you could make a case for "well AC at 120 volts has no voltage drop to think about, but DC does, so let's put the IP22 right by the batteries." BUT, if you are upgrading that connecting wire (less voltage drop) then it might make sense to put it somewhere under the kitchen or aft end of the couch. Just keeps it close to the brown box, and your new dedicated outlet (but, you could also run a longer AC wire to said outlet in the compartment). I guess I like my storage compartment not to have anything in it that could get hot, I have to be careful, etc.

I put my charger on the forward shower wall kinda under the outboard/aft corner of the kitchen. Basically above the box that holds the coiled up shore cord. But that's because it was large (that was then). For an IP22 I could possible tuck it someplace easier to get to (I forget if your Premourse has the straight Premier kitchen or the L-shaped Concourse kitchen?).

Maybe on the forward bottom kitchen "wall" but on the couch side, like above the wheelwell but fastened to the sink half wall? The IP22 is really very compact. BTW it has a "night mode" where it charges at 15 amps but doesn't use the fan, in case you want it even quieter (not that the fan is very loud). But if running it overnight (say 9 hours) then even at 15 amps that's 130 amp hours in.

Okay, off to dig for photos out of the mists of the past.... I'll see what I can find.

Okay, while I hunt down photos, let's start with this. I took the diagram from the 2004 Concourse manual, since I think your "Premourse" is newer, right? You may not have the floor heat they show, but whatever.

I called out three things here:

1) The charger breaker which has three outgoing wires that feed the 4645. You would instead run three wires to a dedicated outlet where you would plug in the IP22. This is the same as the Microwave breaker is now. It doesn't actually go "to" the microwave but rather to a dedidated outlet where you plug in the microwave. IIRC they used a receptacle with only one place to plug in (not two) which is a nice touch.

2) I show where the long skinny wire heads from the brown box to the batteries

3) Noted is the 8AWG white chassis ground connector. That's fine for the system as-is. With the Orion you are running 4AWG so you want the entire circuit to be 4AWG. Two choices:

a) Run only a 4AWG positive from start battery, through Orion, to house battery (fused on both ends). Then count on the frame (chassis) to be the negative "wire." But of course there are then two weak links you have to fix. The 8AWG white chassis ground is no longer large enough, so you would run a 4AWG black or yellow wire from the house battery negative to the frame (chassis). Then similarly check on/upgrade the same little link that goes from start battery negative to Frame (body).

b) Run a 4AWG red/black PAIR of wires from start positive and negative, through Orion, to house positive and negative. Chassis not involved so original 8AWG wire is fine as is.

"B" is nice and clean and you don't have to mess with that little start battery pigtail. But more cost in wire.

Okay, so here is the brown box from the 2004 manual. I'm digging for photos and my LVD notes now.

Click to enlarge and make legible.

Okay, so here is the LVD drawing. I'm going to look through with the idea: Is there any good reason to keep the LVD?

1) It cuts off the batteries at 11.8 volts. This is too low if you want to actually protect the batteries from over-discharge.
Alternative: Victron BMV (shunt) allows you to set low voltage alarm, so you have an alarm again. You can set it for whatever voltage OR percentage of SOC you want. So I say in this way the LVD is obsolete.

Here is the drawing below. On this drawing I've only highlighted where the "long skinny wire" comes in and goes out. So as far as that is concerned, if we decide there is no reason to keep the LVD, the long skinny wire that will now be a shorter, fatter wire would no longer need to be joined at the LVD. Instead it would go straight from the brown box to the house battery positive main fuse (which you will be adding - MRBF if you have the extra height you need). This also negates the very crappy auto resetting breaker thingies underneath the coach body, which you could just get rid of.

I'm just going to notate it in stages or else it would get too cluttered. Here it just points out that one wire:

LVD function 2:

This is the self-jump start switch which is connected to the Surepower 1315. You are eliminating both, so this pretty clearly is no reason to keep the LVD. (More functions in next post)

Here is the third annotated LVD diagram. This part is a little more complicated. In my view this is nothing to keep, but it brings up how you would RATHER it be.

Let me put in the diagram and then type more below it. Okay, so why is this complicated or why does it even exist? Well oftentimes you'd have a wire feeding your loads (DC fuse block), and then another wire taking power from your AC charger (IP22) to the batteries.

But Chinook decided not to only have a looooong skinny wire, but give it two jobs! It carries the (4645) charger power to the batteries, AND it carries the power from the batteries to the loads (via the blade fuses in the right side of the brown box).

Now in ye olden dayes, it was customary to think you had to be charging, charging, charging your batteries ALL THE TIME. Even when parked. Even when stored. Always.

Okay but if you turn off that little switch in the cab overhead (to turn off the loads), then, surprise, you are also cutting off the charging, maybe unnkowingly. So there there is a whole complicated set of LVD wires and a buzzer to tell you not to do that! So if you are charging, and you turn off that switch, you get a buzzer to tell you to Stop That and turn it back on (correct me if I'm wrong but I am 99% sure this is how it worked).

Were it me (and it was, ten years ago), I would say this is not the way to go. Here are two options:

Well let me back up and say you should always have a main battery switch. A real one. Meaning a nice, chunky switch right next to the house bank. This allows you to cut the batteries off from everything instantly if there is a problem. Or turn them off in storage. Or whatever.

Okay, so option 1 is to keep just the one wire (really a set of wires but the negative is the chassis ground). Put your battery switch on the house bank. I think it's going to be pretty obvious to you that if you turn that switch off, thereby cutting off that (now shorter, fatter) wire, that you won't be charging the batteries. So no complicated little buzzer system needed (of course it's less obvious what you are doing when you are sitting in the cab poking tiny matching rocker switches).

Option two would be more complicated and likely not needed, but it would be to have two separate wires (this is more usual but not more necessary). One wire goes from the batteries to your loads. One wire goes from the charger to the batteries. Now you can cut off loads and still charge. I'm not sure how necessary that is though, and you would want either a second switch or a two-position switch. You know your uses better than I do.

A note is that AGM batteries will keep their charge in storage MUCH LONGER than flooded cells do. So I posit that if you turn your loads off (main switch), there is not need to always be charging charging charging. You could make an argument that it's not even good. (I would agree)

With your shunt/app you will be able to see how the batteries are doing. If they need charging, turn the switch on and charge them.

I say your uses because if you leave your rig unattended for 8 months out of sight out of mind, maybe it's different. But then would you leave a battery charger ON for all that time out of sight out of mind? I wouldn't!

So in summary, I see zero use for the LVD in your case. It's just more complication and the low voltage alarm doens't come on until the voltage is really low and there is no adjustment. I can tell you that the alarm from the BMV 712 is very easy to hear! And you can set it for SOC % or voltage.

(That said I would like to see if the Smart Shunt has an alarm, because otherwise I think the BMV 712 is better- the head just connects with one click of a "phone cord" so it's easy if it would work better. I'll have to look at the Smart Shunt manual.)

Please let me know if you see anything I have missed. It's been over ten years since I gave the LVD the boot (have not missed it once).

Okay, did some quick reading.

I'm going to put in a vote for the BMV 712 over the Smart Shunt, though either could work.

Main reason is that while there is an alarm function on the Smart Shunt, there is no buzzer (this is what got me to wondering.... cuz where would the sound come from?). You would need to get a buzzer and wire it in.

The BMV 712 (which comes with a shunt, it is not lacking one), already has an alarm built into the head unit (display). Now, do I look at that display all the time? No. Do I even have a hole drilled for mounting it? No. BUT, I do use the alarm feature. I have the display tucked up into the overhead cabinet over by the side wall between the couch and the driver's seat. If the alarm goes off, I HEAR IT. Then too, the couple times it has gone off (middle of the night of course), I didn't try to get my phone or computer to deal with it. I just grabbed the display head out of the cabinet, looked at the numbers, hit a button, and went back to sleep. (My alarm is set conservatively, so I just knew I had to make sure I charged the next day.)

I can't see any downside to it. The head just clicks on via a telephone type click cable. Its display is there in case something happens to your phone or computer or they aren't handy. Built in alarm buzzer.

That said, there is no reason you couldn't get the Smart Shunt and then wire in an alarm buzzer that you put "upstairs" somewhere. If you prefer that. It's not super difficult and the wires are small and easily managed.