My wife and I purchased a 2003 Chinook Destiny and are in the process of getting to know it and address any issues we find. this our first RV and we are pure amateurs. I noticed some rippling in the area behind the shower. We had it inspected and the person said it may be heat damage. It doesn't feel soft or spongy like water damage delamination. Has anyone seen this before?
Thanks,
Ryan
Rippled fiberglass
Re: Rippled fiberglass
Is there anyway you can get in behind to look at the wall from the inside? to see if theres any damage in behind? Could have been wrecked and thats the result of a poor fiberglass repair job?
Re: Rippled fiberglass
Not having any experience with working with fiberglass, but I think it take a lot more than heat from the sun to damage fiberglass. I suspect it is fire damage, either from park too close to a fire pit, or something similar. Fiberglass is pretty fire resistant, and the resin in there is taking a lot more than boiling water temperature to do much to it. I assume there is no fridge or stove behind the area, correct?
2000 Concourse dinette, on 1999 6.8L Ford E350 Triton V-10 Chassis
Re: Rippled fiberglass
Welcome and congrats on your new Destiny.
No "normal" amount of heat is going to do that to fiberglass. Fire can basically burn out the resin so you are left with "empty" cloth which could then sink; but I don't see that happening without damaging the paint at the same time.
(There can be "print through" as resins continue to shrink over some years, and heat can hasten that; but what that does is enable you to see the weave/texture of the fiberglass "printing through" the gelcoat or paint. Yours doesn't look like that to me, although I'm not there looking at it in person of course.)
Possibilities:
1) Damage to the mold when built (do other same units have similar ripples?) Anything not glass-smooth on the mold will end up in the final product. This seems unlikely to me because I can't see dozens of people buying brand new Chinooks and simply accepting that.
2) Voids in the fiberglass during layup (if that were the case though, you could poke at them and the paint would crack; seems unlikely that wouldn't already have happened. But that is something that can happen, especially around any shape transitions in the mold. OTOH, that would have been obvious to Chinook before they painted the coach, and it seems unlikely they would just have left it like that and painted over it.
3) Some sort of damage (fire or other) that was poorly repaired (but then apparently decently re-painted)?
If it were me I would gently press on those areas. Do they give? Are they rock solid? In other words are there voids under the paint? Or does the paint follow the ripples closely with no voids? If you look carefully, can you see any clues that it has been re-painted?
PS: You wouldn't get water delamination in a molded RV in the same way that "flat sided sandwich" RV's can get those big delaminated bubble spots. Once fiberglass/resin cures, it's all one piece. Now that's not to say that flaws in lamination couldn't cause delamination, but it's unlikely on a molded RV that doesn't sit in the water (like say a boat or a flat surface). With the flat sided ones, it's a glued together sandwich, and the bread and filling can separate more easily.
PPS: I suspect it may be something going on under the paint that you may want to end up having repaired. If that's the case, I would recommend going to a good boat repair place, rather than an RV place. Most boats nowadays are molded fiberglass, and repairing them is an everyday thing at a boatyard. Most RV's are not molded fiberglass (and RV standards tend to be lower in general).
That said there are bad and good repairers at boatyards too, but you will have more to choose from and a better chance of a good job.
No "normal" amount of heat is going to do that to fiberglass. Fire can basically burn out the resin so you are left with "empty" cloth which could then sink; but I don't see that happening without damaging the paint at the same time.
(There can be "print through" as resins continue to shrink over some years, and heat can hasten that; but what that does is enable you to see the weave/texture of the fiberglass "printing through" the gelcoat or paint. Yours doesn't look like that to me, although I'm not there looking at it in person of course.)
Possibilities:
1) Damage to the mold when built (do other same units have similar ripples?) Anything not glass-smooth on the mold will end up in the final product. This seems unlikely to me because I can't see dozens of people buying brand new Chinooks and simply accepting that.
2) Voids in the fiberglass during layup (if that were the case though, you could poke at them and the paint would crack; seems unlikely that wouldn't already have happened. But that is something that can happen, especially around any shape transitions in the mold. OTOH, that would have been obvious to Chinook before they painted the coach, and it seems unlikely they would just have left it like that and painted over it.
3) Some sort of damage (fire or other) that was poorly repaired (but then apparently decently re-painted)?
If it were me I would gently press on those areas. Do they give? Are they rock solid? In other words are there voids under the paint? Or does the paint follow the ripples closely with no voids? If you look carefully, can you see any clues that it has been re-painted?
PS: You wouldn't get water delamination in a molded RV in the same way that "flat sided sandwich" RV's can get those big delaminated bubble spots. Once fiberglass/resin cures, it's all one piece. Now that's not to say that flaws in lamination couldn't cause delamination, but it's unlikely on a molded RV that doesn't sit in the water (like say a boat or a flat surface). With the flat sided ones, it's a glued together sandwich, and the bread and filling can separate more easily.
PPS: I suspect it may be something going on under the paint that you may want to end up having repaired. If that's the case, I would recommend going to a good boat repair place, rather than an RV place. Most boats nowadays are molded fiberglass, and repairing them is an everyday thing at a boatyard. Most RV's are not molded fiberglass (and RV standards tend to be lower in general).
That said there are bad and good repairers at boatyards too, but you will have more to choose from and a better chance of a good job.
1999 Concourse
-
caconcourse
- Senior Member
- Posts: 510
- Joined: October 31st, 2014, 10:25 pm
Re: Rippled fiberglass
It's hard to tell from the picture, but it kind of looks like the damage is to the paint rather than the fiberglass. Since it is also around the water heater panel, it might have been caused by heat from the water heater vent on perhaps a faulty paint job. It would be easy to check by feeling the white gelcoat area between the rippled painted areas to see if it is smooth or smoother than the damaged painted area.
Clay
2001 Concourse
Santa Barbara, CA
2001 Concourse
Santa Barbara, CA
Re: Rippled fiberglass
Do you know if the outside was repainted? There is no way that damage to the fiberglass can leave the paint in good shape. I am completely guessing here, but maybe the panel was burn off, and they brought it to a body shop and they reglass the outside, but it does not make sense either, since why they bother to paint it so well if they do a poor job on the panel?
I don't think it is the mold issue that Blue mentioned, however. With the price that people are paying, there is no way anyone would accept this when they get the Chinook from the dealer. I am sure they have several people work on the body and the final painting, so I don't think it will fall thru the crack.
I hate to speculate, so if you can get hold of the previous owner, I think the best thing is to get the info from him/her.
I don't think it is the mold issue that Blue mentioned, however. With the price that people are paying, there is no way anyone would accept this when they get the Chinook from the dealer. I am sure they have several people work on the body and the final painting, so I don't think it will fall thru the crack.
I hate to speculate, so if you can get hold of the previous owner, I think the best thing is to get the info from him/her.
2000 Concourse dinette, on 1999 6.8L Ford E350 Triton V-10 Chassis
Re: Rippled fiberglass
I had a thought just now, and I think it's the most likely of my guesses. This didn't come to me at first (despite it staring me in the face), because on the 21-ers the water heater is up behind the driver's seat. But look where your water heater is! That runs on propane (sometimes) and basically there is a flame going inside it. So here is my theory (and how you can sleuth it out):
1) A fire starts in the water heater somehow (I mean, more than the normal fire in there).
2) Somehow, the flames (or even just extreme heat) go up inside the wall, between the shower stall and the outside wall.
3) Resin is melted out of the fiberglass matrix (entirely possible with extreme heat), but since it is behind the wall the paint isn't overly damaged.
4) Water heater or burner thereof is replaced, but fiberglass is not repaired.
Now I may be all wet here, but if not, here is what I would do to see:
First of all, just open the water heater outside door and have look. Anything obvious?
Second, there must be an access to the inside of the water heater - maybe under a sink or other fixture (assuming the water heater is in the bathroom).
Third, is there an opening roof vent in your bathroom? If so, it has a "garnish." That's the trim ring around the outside that has a fastener in each of the four corners. Remove those fasteners and take down the trim ring (may not be symmetrical holes, so mark it in some way for orientation).
Now, on my Concourse, once that trim ring is off, I can peer into the gap between the shower liner and the actual inside ceiling. In my rig, the ceiling in the main rooms is a marine carpet. Well, that carpet extends into the bathroom but just above the shower stall liner. In other words, as they did with the floor carpet, they did with the ceiling, and basically plastered the whole rig before they put in the cabinets, shower liner, etc. If there was any fire event in between the walls, I would think there would be some evidence on that carpet (anyone who would take the time to clean that, would probably fix the fiberglass). Is there soot or anything you can see?
Now maybe it was just heat from a water heater malfunction and no flames or soot got up that high, but it's like ten minutes to check.
If that is the case, then we can talk about various ways you could have the repair made (if it comes to that).
Now I'm curious about what you will find.
BG
1) A fire starts in the water heater somehow (I mean, more than the normal fire in there).
2) Somehow, the flames (or even just extreme heat) go up inside the wall, between the shower stall and the outside wall.
3) Resin is melted out of the fiberglass matrix (entirely possible with extreme heat), but since it is behind the wall the paint isn't overly damaged.
4) Water heater or burner thereof is replaced, but fiberglass is not repaired.
Now I may be all wet here, but if not, here is what I would do to see:
First of all, just open the water heater outside door and have look. Anything obvious?
Second, there must be an access to the inside of the water heater - maybe under a sink or other fixture (assuming the water heater is in the bathroom).
Third, is there an opening roof vent in your bathroom? If so, it has a "garnish." That's the trim ring around the outside that has a fastener in each of the four corners. Remove those fasteners and take down the trim ring (may not be symmetrical holes, so mark it in some way for orientation).
Now, on my Concourse, once that trim ring is off, I can peer into the gap between the shower liner and the actual inside ceiling. In my rig, the ceiling in the main rooms is a marine carpet. Well, that carpet extends into the bathroom but just above the shower stall liner. In other words, as they did with the floor carpet, they did with the ceiling, and basically plastered the whole rig before they put in the cabinets, shower liner, etc. If there was any fire event in between the walls, I would think there would be some evidence on that carpet (anyone who would take the time to clean that, would probably fix the fiberglass). Is there soot or anything you can see?
Now maybe it was just heat from a water heater malfunction and no flames or soot got up that high, but it's like ten minutes to check.
If that is the case, then we can talk about various ways you could have the repair made (if it comes to that).
Now I'm curious about what you will find.
BG
1999 Concourse
Re: Rippled fiberglass
Thanks for all your insight! I checked the water heater compartment and it looks original and undamaged. So it's unlikely due to a water heater fire. It's behind the shower area, so unlikely damaged by the stove , furnace, or generator. The bubbles are very solid and there is no chipping or cracking. It does appear that it may have been repainted or repaired. There was no reportable damage that I could find through a VIN search. I think it may have been heat/fire damage from a grill or bonfire. It is on the same side as the accessory barbeque grill. It's solid and water tight and the mechanic said it shouldn't be a problem. It's more of a cosmetic issue.
Re: Rippled fiberglass
Can you remove a taillight and shine a flashlight back in there to inspect? If you zoom in on the areas i marked you can see runs in the paint job, you can also see where there was a crack in the fiberglass. I dont think this was fire damage because if you zoom in you can see the waves all the way back to the taillight and down the side of the of the quarter. I think the vehicle was in a collison of some type and that is the result of a poor repair job because it involved such a large area and a lazy body repairman.
These defects in no way imply that im correct about it having been in some sort of accident, but they do indicate that repairs were in fact made at some point for whatever reason. I would think if it was fire related it would have burned the entire truck to the ground considering how much surface area is involved. If you can get the tail light out and look back in behind you should see evidence of a fire if it was fire related, because they wouldnt be able to get back in behind the shower anymore than you can to clean up the mess it left behind. If its a colision repair the repair will be obvious from behind because they cant get behind to smooth things out or do sanding and you wont see soot or fire damage, ect....
Someone else had mentioned maybe it was parked to close to a fire pit at some point. I read something from a corvette guy about how when they repainted corvettes they couldnt bake the paint in the booth because the heat would destroy the body of the corvette. But then i find links with guys that bake the paint on with no apparent issues like this http://corvette.net/paint-4.htm...... Who knows...
These defects in no way imply that im correct about it having been in some sort of accident, but they do indicate that repairs were in fact made at some point for whatever reason. I would think if it was fire related it would have burned the entire truck to the ground considering how much surface area is involved. If you can get the tail light out and look back in behind you should see evidence of a fire if it was fire related, because they wouldnt be able to get back in behind the shower anymore than you can to clean up the mess it left behind. If its a colision repair the repair will be obvious from behind because they cant get behind to smooth things out or do sanding and you wont see soot or fire damage, ect....
Someone else had mentioned maybe it was parked to close to a fire pit at some point. I read something from a corvette guy about how when they repainted corvettes they couldnt bake the paint in the booth because the heat would destroy the body of the corvette. But then i find links with guys that bake the paint on with no apparent issues like this http://corvette.net/paint-4.htm...... Who knows...
Re: Rippled fiberglass
That's a good theory, Dougm. I'm curious what will be found.
And it wouldn't have to be a true accident (in the sense of a road crash) even - people often back into things with larger vehicles, and the aft corner is a prime candidate.
I agree that there's going to have to be some evidence on the inside, whether it was fire or a crunch repair. It's just too hard to get behind the shower (and as you say, the job doesn't look like it was done by the tidiest of repair people anyway).
I don't know about this model, but on my Concourse I can disassemble the inside walls of the "tire locker" and get a great view of that area from behind the passenger side wall. Much larger viewing area than the taillight (but if the taillight is easy to remove, it may be a good first option).
And OP: Barring complete collapse (which is obviously not happening), that whole area is basically cosmetic. But, just so you know, it's not that hard to repair fiberglass to a smooth surface and then repaint (by a pro, I mean). So you could have it re-done if it bugs you.
And it wouldn't have to be a true accident (in the sense of a road crash) even - people often back into things with larger vehicles, and the aft corner is a prime candidate.
I agree that there's going to have to be some evidence on the inside, whether it was fire or a crunch repair. It's just too hard to get behind the shower (and as you say, the job doesn't look like it was done by the tidiest of repair people anyway).
I don't know about this model, but on my Concourse I can disassemble the inside walls of the "tire locker" and get a great view of that area from behind the passenger side wall. Much larger viewing area than the taillight (but if the taillight is easy to remove, it may be a good first option).
And OP: Barring complete collapse (which is obviously not happening), that whole area is basically cosmetic. But, just so you know, it's not that hard to repair fiberglass to a smooth surface and then repaint (by a pro, I mean). So you could have it re-done if it bugs you.
1999 Concourse