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Just starting to investigate this question Pwm-Mppt

Posted: April 16th, 2017, 5:54 pm
by A Rooney
Ok,the first few links I investigated seem to suggest that mppt controllers are more cost effective for high power multiple panel systems especially below freezing,or where the distance to the panel is long.In addition the mppt controllers I looked at (briefly) are more expensive and non programmable (4 stage algorithm built in programs) I haven't located yet a good truly programmable mppt controller (reasonably priced)....The Bogart engineering system of monitor working with controller has proven effective for me and for the price...it is programmable and provides an accurate battery monitor....for example my particular Oddyesy batteries have a manufacturer recommended absorption voltage of 14.7 volts....with the bogart system I not only can program in 14.7 volts but it uses that exact absorption voltage and the amps accepted by the batteries at that rate as one of its criteria of determining the batteries are full ( the other additional method is to count replaced amps and a certain overage (again a programmable function recommended by the manufacturer of your battery) Now we all know how accurate inexpensive battery monitors are.... If your controller is running on a set of algorithms pre programmed,it may be switching to a float maintainence charge too early and never really optimumly charging your batteries.My point?,everyone goes gaga over the progressive dynamics converter charger,but is it really a good charger? Or have we just decided to agree it is,certainly it may be better than a stock magnatec and maybe it might be great for the right use pattern and battery,otherwise...I guess I am not sold(I have one myself) so the question is am I the only one who has found the bogart system of monitor/controller effective? Is mppt really that much of an advantage on a 150 watt or 200watt system. Especially if it's not programmable....and how much is a truly nice programmable mppt controller so we can really get some cost comparisons in the real world.Rooney 2001 Premier

Re: Just starting to investigate this question Pwm-Mppt

Posted: April 17th, 2017, 3:57 pm
by A Rooney
I guess I can understand the reluctance,but I have been thinking on this it doesn't really matter how many amps you are wasting,if you are only drawing down your batteries daily only slightly to the point where they are most receptive to the absorption voltage they were designed for and regardless of the algorithm your controller switches stages to (let's say it's 3 or 4 stages and not programmable)none of those stages being the exact voltage your batteries desires most....) since your batteries are only topping back up they are not going to accept anywhere near the 10 amps a single panel of my size.MY point is if you are only using your batteries like I do you are better off with a programmable pwm,than a multi stage mppt that doesn't match your batteries specs.Rooney

Re: Just starting to investigate this question Pwm-Mppt

Posted: April 17th, 2017, 4:33 pm
by kdarling
Oops sorry, heading out on a trip and forgot to reply.

As someone with an EE background, I got curious why a claim was often repeated that the far superior MPPT controllers were not cost effective in under 200 watt systems. I mean, seriously, why use PWM and often give up a fair chunk of your solar input?

Two answers came up, and frankly they seem to reflect the mentality of users with a huge house system. First, it is said that it's easier to add more solar panels to make up for what PWM wastes. Except that doesn't apply to our Chinooks with their limited roof room. Second, that the loss of "only" 20-60 watts was no big deal. Maybe to someone with a home roof array, but I think it's even more critical with a smaller system!

As for programmable MPPT controllers, here are two lower cost but quality ones I've been looking at. Oh, this is hard on an ipad which keeps losing its place, so i'm gonna have to keep coming back and editing. Here I go...

1. Victron Blue Solar

That one is American made I think, moisture resistant, has top algorithms and is compact.

2. EPSolar TracerA series

Check out the document tab and manual to see the programmability specs.

Both are available pretty cheap on eBay, and I'm actually leaning towards the second one designed in China. You can get a 30A version with the wired remote status/programmer module for about $130. The 20A version with remote goes for about $105. I mean come on, with remote display it's an incredible deal. And they get good reviews, and seem to be OEMs for many other brandnames.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPEVER-Tracer-3 ... Sw2xRYTmKu

Just some thoughts on the fly... everyone's needs and desires are different.
Kev

Re: Just starting to investigate this question Pwm-Mppt

Posted: April 18th, 2017, 9:44 am
by A Rooney
I don't have an Electrical Engineering background,and I understand from reading that Waste is an important issue for you (when you say 20-60 watts how do you qualify that what panel size what temperatures) Perhaps one thing we can agree on,is that for a lot of Chinook owners the original factory electrical setup was less than optimum in maintaining their battery banks leading to the necessity of "early" replacement.That's a Waste.On the other extreme if you have lots of expensive highly efficient panels on the roof (or ground) a 3 battery bank,but only rarely use that battery power,or to the point where that solar Potential can be used ,that also is a Waste (but of course as you say that Potential may be something even if not needed,is something still Desired)The question remains what is that middle road of a minimum system that still maintains your needs and batteries reasonably well.In my case,(not on paper but in use)with a pwm controller designed to work with an battery monitor and shunt,I manage splendidly,but your Point is if I get it correctly is that why not a little more Potential even if it's not needed(most of the time).The idea that pwm technology is totally obsolete,I am not convinced of......so far...but I certainly am open to more details of the actual systems other owners have in use,what they paid for them,how those systems work in the real world.....as opposed to the Potential in fact or theory,for its own sake. Rooney
2001 Premier

Re: Just starting to investigate this question Pwm-Mppt

Posted: April 19th, 2017, 7:11 am
by A Rooney
Graphs and equations,I admit make me feel like I am back in high school,and I am more of a nuts and bolts dude....Ok followed the Victron link (looks like a good product) The 30 amp (eBay) is $196 the display is $287 the battery monitor w/shunt is $143..,,would be interested if anyone is Actually using this system and which of these products figure in it..........still studying those equations. But in the meantime I was thinking of running down my batteries to find out at what point do they actually accept more amps via my Progressive Dynamics/generator than my solar panel is capable of providing...I know my system as configured works for me (a side issue to pwm-mppt)but how?why? Secondly I could buy a victron 15 amp model and connect it to Actually see at what point (if any) it can provide those extra amps....then say my pwm controller....looks like if It takes software and a pc to program without the display? .... Like Paul Simon says "I don't believe what I read in the papers,they are just out to capture my dime",...Rooney 'as always' 2001 Premier

Re: Just starting to investigate this question Pwm-Mppt

Posted: April 19th, 2017, 3:12 pm
by Blue~Go
I can't speak to a PWM controller, as I haven't tried one. I figured that with limited real estate, plus my general nature, I wanted it to be as efficient as possible, so I went MPPT. Some of my requirements were complete adjustability (not just choosing battery type, but being able to set specific voltages, specific temperature compensation factors, etc.), external temperature compensation, remote meter, terminals that didn't make it a huge pain to fit larger cables, good heat sink/no fan, and good access to tech support. I've found that even the "good" brands have some good and some bad points (none perfect yet). I like my Morningstar, but I've also helped people install Blue Sky and Victron (and I've considered Outback and Midnite). I have a small Victron (75/15) providing power to a single small battery in a vehicle system (non-Chinook). Combined with their Bluetooth dongle it's pretty slick, but my one gripe is there is no external temperature compensation. But as I said, they all (brands) seem to have at least one feature I would change if it were me. (For example: no external temp comp, no "end amps" termination of absorption, tiny connection points, can't program without Windows, and other things --- some of these would no longer be problems with lithium batteries, but that's in the future for me, not right now.)

Since I'm running ground panels, I had voltage losses over a long(er) cable to consider. By using an MPPT controller, I could run my pair of panels in series and still easily have a 35' long tether and very little voltage drop. With a PWM controller, I would not have been able to do that. I'll probably run my roof panels as a series pair as well, and although it's not such a big deal there, it'll still be handy to use smaller wires for a given drop.

I can't think of a good example to use right now, but there are times that I can see "more" is coming in after the MPPT conversion. Is that necessary? I like it, but then I don't have a big field in which to add another half dozen panels, and I like efficiency.

All that said, many people are happily using PWM controllers, so obviously both types can work. Were I buying again, I'd still definitely go MPPT. The cost is not enough more (as compared to the rest of the system) to be a deterrent. And with batteries being so expensive, I can easily justify spending a bit more to potentially forestall their replacement. Someone else might prefer PWM for their own reasons. My guess is that sometimes a fair bit of power is lost to less visible things as well. For example percentage voltage drop sneaking in over the various legs in the system. So it's kind of like an anchoring system, in which you want to check all the links and consider the whole.

Re: Just starting to investigate this question Pwm-Mppt

Posted: April 22nd, 2017, 6:36 am
by A Rooney
first,thought I'd state for the record,that this is a question that fascinated me,since generally I go by what I read on the Internet,so I am curious to investigate it further.....I don't see it as a point to argue...(seems like that's a Big Waste) The reasons I went with the Bogart system were a shunt/monitor interacts,programs,controls a (pwm)controller was that it struck me as an elegant,inexpensive,and complete system (as it combines the display,monitor,and programming at one easy point of reference)That's why I asked about if anyone used the display,monitor, and victron controller setup.The victron controller is what I consider relatively inexpensive,but does it work better with their display and battery monitor?or do you hook it up and fly blind (happy with the money you saved) I know my system works because it works,and I am not denying that there is a percentage of greater energy efficiency in mppt systems,and I am not so frugal that I see spending a little extra because efficiency is your thing as a Waste.I gladly waste significant solar efficiency by having an installed flat panel,because well messing around on the roof is not my thing,so I accept that.Another thing I like about the bogart system is the Tech support,because it's a Mom and Pop business,you call and talk with Ralph who designed and manufactures the product.When he finds a bug he fixes it,and when there is a firmware upgrade that involves,sending back a unit he pays you for your trouble for having to do so.It does kinda depend on the whole system..and for me I wouldn't,t install any system without a display and battery monitor,because that is what works for me.I have not had a chance to test my system to determine the battery soc percentage at which,the 110 charger provides more amps to my batteries than my 150 flat solar panel can provide.Rooney

Re: Just starting to investigate this question Pwm-Mppt

Posted: April 22nd, 2017, 9:19 am
by Blue~Go
Sorry, I guess I was answering the title of the thread and not what you actually had asked.

I have a slight bias against "all in one" things, and plus I already had a separate battery monitor, but I did install one of the "all in ones" in a friend's van, and it's actually quite nice. In his case I put in a Blue Sky 25 amp MPPT controller. The one we chose can be used with their smart display, which works as not only a display, but also an amp counter type meter (like a Victron BMV), and a programmer. So with the display you can see what the solar controller is doing, monitor the battery bank, and program the controller. Slick! The programming part is especially nice for people like me who don't typically run windows (my Sunsaver requires not only Windows but a serial port (and/or adapter) -- for me that's a bit of a headache (although granted, I'm not programming it on a daily basis).

It also has an "end amps" feature for stopping the absorption cycle, which is a very slick and super accurate way to do it. I'd say that would be my choice out of all the possible ways to go about it. Other controllers use other ways, which also work, but to my mind it's hard to beat end amps. (Outback also does this, IIRC, but their controllers are all bigger than what I need and have fans to boot.) That said, absorption stage is a lead-acid thing, so I guess it won't be so important if/when people go to lithium batteries.

So why don't I have all Blue Sky controllers? Well, it's like I mentioned above: To me, there is no clear best choice, because they all either seem to have a feature I don't like, or are missing one I do want. Things that I don't like so much about the Blue Sky are that it has very small connection points (IIRC 10 AWG wire is the largest that will fit), and they are very close together (so negative and positive are almost touching, granted they likely have heat shrink on them at that point). But in many 12-volt systems (i.e. 17-18 volt panels), you'd want much larger wire coming into the controller. You can get around this by going to power posts (or a switch on the positive side and a power post on the negative side) with larger wire and then to the controller with smaller wire, but that takes more space and is just something extra with more connections. They don't have a voltage sense wire, so you really do want to have as big a wire as you need. The terminals are screws that will take ring terminals, so that's good. Also, the Blue Sky controllers tend to be very tight on voltage if a person wants to run two panels in series. Either they are de-rated (amp wise), or you just can't do it (over voltage will kill the controller). Some of their controllers are a little better with this (e.g. the 15 amp), but it's still a bit tight, especially if you are going to be in a place with cold mornings. And this isn't an "oh darn, I'm going to lose some of my power" thing, but rather the controller will instantly, permanently die if you put higher voltage into it than it can take (this is basically true for all controllers, but most controllers now have huge volt ceilings like 75, 100, 150 vs. the lower Blue Sky limits). They do have external temp. comp as an option. My nits aside (and they may not matter to some, depending on setup), I think they are pretty slick. I could just use the 15 amp controller if I used two of them, one for each pair (and shut off my panels on mornings below around 28º), but the 25 wouldn't quite work (has an even lower voltage limit). But it's annoying as none of the other contenders would have the least worry about over voltage.

I really like the Victron controllers, but (ha, you knew that was coming given what I said above, right?) they have some things I don't like too. My biggest gripe is that they have no optional external temperature compensation :? (Unless you step up to their largest and most expensive one, which is much bigger than most of us here would want or need.) This just kills them for me. I mean, why take so much care to get juuuust the right voltage going to your precious batteries (set the system up, customize the parameters, eliminate voltage drop), and then have it be way off due to the controller being at a completely different temperature than the batteries? Guh. And I know this would be a problem (at least for me in an RV or boat), because I have my Sunsaver controller mounted right to the outside of the box that holds my battery bank. And this "box" doesn't have end walls (just beams), so it's not like it's sealed. They are both under my couch. And yet, for the "charging day" (early morning to late afternoon), the controller is always much, MUCH warmer than my batteries. Two hundred+ pounds of lead just doesn't warm up as fast as a 10 oz controller does. They probably do catch up to each other by nightfall but I'm not charging then (actually I'm not sure if they do even then; I tend to watch it during the day). The remote meter for the controller has two successive button pushes that give controller temperature, and then temperature compensation lead temp (that's on the battery post), so I can easily see how they compare. So that just cuts it out for me. Which is too bad because they have some VERY slick features, and are in general a very cool and forward thinking company, who is easy to interact with. Again though, this won't matter with lithium batteries, in which case they'd probably be my top choice in controller. They still do have a couple of other "things" that may or may not make them everyone's choice (for example, they need to be at battery voltage plus five volts to start up in the morning). They use a smart algorithm to determine absorption stage length. I'd say it's a little slicker than Morningstar, but not as good as end amps (again, that won't be a factor with lithium batteries).

I do have a Victron 75/15 (can go up to 75 volts/15 amps) solar controller in a car though. Why? Well it's a tiny system (so I have less invested in it being treated perfectly just in case the lack of temp comp is not so gentle on it), the controller is tiny, very inexpensive, no fan, and I really wanted to try one out now that they have cheaper/easier ways to monitor and program them (you used to have to have a Windows computer, same old story). Now you can use either a relatively inexpensive "MPPT control" (same size/shape as their BMV battery monitor), or a Bluetooth phone app that uses a dongle you put on the controller. I have the latter and having used it for some months, I'd say it's pretty nifty. I might still prefer a "real" gauge in a larger vehicle, but for a car this is perfect as it's not like there is a wall to put a gauge on. The app can also program the controller (no more needing to borrow a Windows computer), and shows a 30-day history. Their larger/more expensive "real" gauges also interface with a website that gives you nice graphs and longer history, but that's way more than I'd want for a tiny system. So what about temp comp? I still think it's a huge minus (for lead acid) not to have it, but this is a small, single battery (Group 24), so lots of surface area, and the car of course warms up more quickly than under my couch in the Chinook. Also if it does die "younger" than it otherwise might have it's less of a hit than if it were a big house bank (and with the heat in the car it's likely not to live a full, long life in any case). And as I said, I wanted to try one just because I like to see how the different brands work. I don't even have a battery monitor on this small system, but I can get a good idea of the state of the battery by watching what the solar does (it's a 100 watt panel for only 80 amp hours of battery so as long as there is sun the battery can drink its fill and that basically shows me what's up). Oh, one other thing I forgot to mention that I very much dislike: Small wire connectors of the type that you just push in the wire and then tighten a screw. What a pain. This might not be quite so bad if I bought some of those crimp on pins, but .... Why? Why not a screw you can put a ring terminal under? Also on some of the Chinook sized controllers, you'd likely have to run wire to power post, then to the controller to step down the size (depending on voltages and distance). (On the tiny car system, 10 AWG wire to the controller is ample, but those push in connectors... ugh!.) To be fair I'll see about some of those pins though.

So in summary, I like Victron as a company. They are innovative, you can communicate with them, and the products are very nice and have some great features. Really nice that way. They've been in the boating industry for years so I already was familiar with them as a name, and I've been using their battery monitors for some years (they made it so much easier by using a Cat 5 type cable vs. a handful of tiny wires that had been the typical way before). What stopped me from using one of their controllers in my Chinook was the (at the time) need to use a Windows computer to program them (no longer necessary), and the fact that they have no external temperature compensation option on any of their controllers of a size I'd use (still true, although if I move to lithium in future that's no longer a need).

I hope that was more in line with what you intended to be the focus of the thread? I got a little lost on that first response, sorry.

BG

Re: Just starting to investigate this question Pwm-Mppt

Posted: April 22nd, 2017, 12:15 pm
by A Rooney
Blue,what can I say great post....i am with you on the temperature compensation because watching my monitor I stay within absorption and rarely enter bulk stage,I run a propane fridge...so my solar is more about Truly topping off up my batteries I.e. Keeping them full,is to me the most important factor in preserving their health,and avoiding premature and slow battery deterioration,I also have my ravens eye glinting on Lithium,but I am resigned to the possibility that treating my batteries correctly......that may be sometime down the road.....Trailwagons intent in my mind was to create an electrical system that was balanced,but looking back....it's hard to imagine a usage pattern that it would fit...perhaps as we have said driving from park hookup to park hookup,but honestly I have my doubts even their.It doesn't take a whole lot of $$ these days to create a more robust system .... Now different people have different strategies to do that....and depending on your energy needs and desires...mine at the moment are modest,and taken care of by my set up,but should that change I might investigate what the actual energy advantage is in amps to mppt,that said as to real estate I only have a single panel so I do have the option of mounting another...should I need/desire more power.To be honest I can't recall how I managed my heavy gauge wire connections but I do recall it was tight.....I am going to lookup "end amps " as I have not heard of that term....and I am fascinated by the DC battery puzzle and always willing to learn more. thanks,Rooney

Re: Just starting to investigate this question Pwm-Mppt

Posted: April 22nd, 2017, 12:49 pm
by Blue~Go
Hi Rooney,

End amps has to do with the question of how long do you hold the absorption charge stage (which is constant voltage/diminishing current). Too short and you're not charging fully; too long and you're edging into overcharging.

I've found that the various solar controller companies handle this in varying ways.

On the rest of this post, know that I'm only an amateur, so don't take anything I say as gospel. This is my understanding of how things are working.

To start out with, the battery itself will have a point at which it is considered fully absorbed (charged), and ready to move to the float (maintenance) stage. For my Lifelines, that figure is "when the [incoming] current [the batteries can take] drops below .5% of the battery capacity," or in other words, .5 amps for a 100-amp hour battery. I have a 375 amp-hour bank, therefore I'm looking for absorption to (ideally) end when the amps coming in get down to around (just under actually) the 2 amp figure during the absorb stage. (Since the absorption stage is constant voltage, the number of amps going in will start out higher at the beginning of the stage, then slowly diminish; what I want to see is that that figure is at around 2 amps or just below when the controller switches over to float stage.)

Just to re-cap the stages for a lead-acid battery:

1) Bulk.
For practical purposes with our type of systems, this is "throw everything you've got at it, amp-wise" and as that happens the amps will pile in and the bank voltage will slowly rise from the starting point (say, 12.5v for example) until it reaches the absorption stage voltage (say 14.4 depending on your batteries and controller settings) (14.4 will be 14.4 at 77ºF, but the equivalent voltage will be higher if it's colder and lower if it's warmer, hence temp compensation to adjust it). This breakover from bulk to absorb will occur when the batteries are in the neighborhood of 85% full. This is the reason that some charging sources can never get the batteries completely full; they need to be able to hold 14.x volts for a number of hours and some cannot do this - but I'm getting ahead of the stage here :D )

2) Absorption.
Once the bank voltage hits the absorption voltage (say 14.4), then the charge becomes voltage constant. The voltage will stay the same, and the amps going in will start to diminish as the bank nears the charged stage. When the controller terminates this stage is the point we're talking about now.

3) Float.
This is just a maintenance type charge that kicks in once the absorption stage is ended. Typically in the lower 13.x voltage.

(I don't think of Equalization or Conditioning as a "stage," since it doesn't happen on a regular basis, but some would call it a fourth stage.)

But okay, so back to the absorption stage, and how to end it. I know that for my bank, I'd like the amps going in to stop when the batteries are taking in just under 2 amps and for it to switch over to float. I don't want this to happen sooner (when it's still putting in more amps) or later (when the amps going in have diminished further) because that would be under- or over-charging. So how does a controller handle this? There are a number of ways.

1) Various "rules" you can set up.
My Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT (and a number of their other MPPT controllers) use a number of rules that you can tweak. For example, it may start with a default of 2 hours of absorb time. That's probably a good guess. Then you can adapt a "rule" that says, essentially, "If the voltage drops below xx.x overnight, extend the absorption time to X. Another rule says that "if the voltage drops below x.xx then cancel float for the next day." Another rule has to do with when the controller will exit float and go back into absorb.

I started with a reasonable guess and then watched my monitor to see what amperage was going in when the controller switched over to float. This can be a bit hard to "catch," and so it's not perfect. On the other hand, close is probably fine. There is a jumper you can take in and out to go between two sets of settings, so I have a "fat" set of settings and a "lean" set of settings. This is handy since I have to do a bit of rigamarole to change the settings, because I don't use Windows and also have to set up a serial port adapter.

2) Algorithm
The Victron controllers I have used have an algorithm. Basically, there are three absorption lengths, and it will automatically choose one of them based on how low the batteries went the day/night before.

3) End amps
With "end amps" the controller shifts over to float at the "end amps" point you set. In my case, I'd set it at 2 amps and bingo, it would switch over. Nice. I only see this setting on controllers that have a built in battery monitor, and I think the reason is that, for example, on a typical controller display it shows the amps coming in from the controller. BUT, what if 5 amps are coming in, and your refrigerator is on and drawing 3.8 amps? According to the controller you would not have reached "end amps" (2 amps in my case), but in reality you have because only 1.2 amps is only going into the batteries (in this example the sun is out and I COULD be taking in 10 amps with my 200 watts, if the batteries/loads wanted that much). I can see the real amount of amps going into the battery on my battery monitor, but that's separate from the controller display.

The Blue Sky controllers can use "end amps" (they have a single monitor/controller display so they can figure out what's coming in and going off to loads, vs. what's coming in to the battery bank itself). I think the Outback can also do this, and perhaps some of the Midnites (but those are often larger than what we need and have cooling fans).

I'd say end amps seems the slickest and most precise to me, but since that's not the only thing I choose a controller based on, I have two controllers that control absorption time by other means (one by sets of rules, one by algorithm). But if I could pick and choose features and put them all together just how I wanted them, I'd choose end amps.

Of course, the world being what it is, none of this matters with lithium batteries. LOL. In some ways lithiums are so easy that it's hard to shed "lead head" thinking when considering their care and feeding. Like you, at the moment my lead bank is humming along just fine, so I'm keeping an eye on lithium but continuing to use my AGM bank for now.