Batteries and Charging

[deppstein]

Picking up where we left off, I'll attach some pics of the "Spider Web" currently on my House Batteries. Clearly speaks to the need to clean things up in terms of connections and fusing. I had a talk yesterday with Eddie (the Custom Van Guy doing the install)...he is "on board' with all we have discussed regarding the IP22, Orion XS, dual 4 awg from Start to House, Smart Shunt with temp sensor...And he had a suggestion as to how best to address the wire clutter. He thinks I should run all of these wires through a Lynx Distributor. Neat, clean, and works fine with the rest of the system (Chargers, Smart Shunt IP21). So, I looked at it...makes sense to me. Thoughts?

But now those "Spider Webs" have me nervous about cutting things out of the system. I mean, how the hell can I tell whether those little lines (red with yellow in line fuse) from Pos, and small black from Neg are the "long skinny" or solar direct connect that I had installed...and which one of these wires from the pos go to the Blue Sea? The only one I can identify for sure is the 1/0 inverter line!

So (going against your "SO CLOSE" urging, and LVD removal begging), I am actually reconsidering leaving the LVD and Blue Sea "as is." I understand that there would be issues of interference between the Blue Sea and Orion XS IF Blue Sea was operating. BUT, if I were to use the manual shut off and keep it off, those things would all go away. And I could effectively combine a few things--like Solar and Blue Sea loads, and Orion XS and IP22 loads on a single lug on the Positive bus of the Lynx Distributor (Orion and IP22 won't ever run at same time) to have everything fit onto the Lynx.

I know this would be stopping short of perfection...but...

To do the full Blue Sea and LVD elimination, I need more encouragement and specific advice as to how to go about it without screwing it up.
David

[Blue~Go]

Advance summary:
You can do it! You have your smarts, the Chinook forum, Chinook diagrams, and then your van guy. But mostly, I know YOU can do it.

Picking up where we left off, I'll attach some pics of the "Spider Web" currently on my House Batteries.

Ahahaha... more below.

I had a talk yesterday with Eddie (the Custom Van Guy doing the install)...he is "on board' with all we have discussed regarding the IP22, Orion XS, dual 4 awg from Start to House, Smart Shunt with temp sensor...

Good!

And he had a suggestion as to how best to address the wire clutter. He thinks I should run all of these wires through a Lynx Distributor. Neat, clean, and works fine with the rest of the system (Chargers, Smart Shunt IP21). So, I looked at it...makes sense to me. Thoughts?

Personally, I never choose the Lynx, but it can work really well. I do have lots of Victron equipment, so I'm generally on board. I just don't love the Lynx for a couple of reasons: 1) It's quite bulky for what it does. 2) I just never love Mega fuses (which the Lynx uses). They have always been known as kinda cheap, and they only go down to ~100 amps, meaning you still need other fuse blocks etc. for things that need smaller fusing. But even then there is a gap, because ATC type smaller blocks only go up to 30a.

Again, they do the job. And they are blue and have a matching cover. I might choose something else after looking at what you have there (maybe a Blue Sea Safety Hub 150 #7748 -- Just depends). Basically you need something like an MRBF or two right on the battery either way (these have the correct AIC rating where neither Midi nor Mega fuses do). In the end there should be like one positive and one negative wire that actually go to your battery posts (and the BMV temp sensor). Everything else will go to your fuse blocks (positive) and bus bars then shunt (negative).

Where I would start this is at the batteries. You aren't living in the Chinook right now, I presume? So rather than approach this from the angle of adapting all the old stuff slavishly to the new setup, I would pull everything off the batteries, while identifying things as you know what they are and labeling them (hint: Look at the Chinook wiring diagram). As I remember it there was not that much. So you pull everything off the house batteries and then organize/replace them. Ignore the LVD - that's going away so you don't really care. I can give you a start, just based on the original Chinook wiring. Here is the diagram from the 2000 Manual. I'm sure yours is very similar (tho as I type I can't see the year of your Premourse).

We are talking about the positive wires for the most part here:

1) Look at the Purple arrow on the diagram above. This is a red wire, IIRC 6AWG, that comes from the Surepower 1315. You will be discarding this. Buh-bye. (Extra points if you pull it out and toss it.)

2) Now look at the pink arrow on the diagram. This is an 8AWG red wire that comes from the brown box (through the LVD and a crusty, crappy self resetting breaker mounted below, which you will be FORGETTING ABOUT. You'll be tossing this wire out and replacing it with a single wire from the brown box (either by extending the wire that is on the LVD now, or MUCH better, by running a new, 8AWG red wire behind the water tank straight from the brown box to the new fuse that will be protecting it (from there a main wire goes to the battery).

3) Now look at the green arrow on the diagram. This is going to be a smallish wire that comes from the LVD. It also goes through a crappy self-resetting 15a breaker. So, you can tell this apart from the (also small) original solar wire because the solar wire has a 7.5 amp inline fuse on it right near the batteries. This wire can be taken out and discarded. Buh-bye. I'm feeling cleaner and tidier already

4) Now look at the teal arrow on the diagram. If you still have it, this is the incoming wire from the original roof solar panel (via the original solar controller). This has an inline 15a fuse, so that's a clue. There is a corresponding negative wire that comes with it. Feel free to eliminate this and it's solar controller if you like. Or put it back, using a small fuse on your Safety Hub 150 (or a separate small fuse block if you use the Lynx). No need for a bunch of inline fuses floating all over the place.

5) Now look at the orange arrow on the diagram. This would be a 6AWG red wire that comes from your generator starter. That you no longer have.... I can't say how they fuse this on yours because in my era it went up to the start battery. But they used a small breaker that looks like a Blue Sea 285 on mine right near the start battery, so maybe you have one of these near your house battery.

Although I don't love the heavily stranded wire they used for this (certainly don't put it into a Victron terminal), if it's long enough you could re-purpose it as the wire that goes from the house battery to the brown box (since you no longer have a built in generator) if you wanted to.

That's basically it. Anything else is a new added thing and if you like, we can suss it out. Like maybe your new solar. I'll stick with you. I just finished helping a friend with a job where we had to identify like 75 completely inexplicable wires. We got them all figured out. Process of elimination. In this case we have the Chinook diagram, plus knowledge of many Chinooks. Yay. But so how about you find and remove all of the wires listed above? Label them (blue tape or whatever, just for now). Plus your 1/0 inverter wires. Now is there anything left? Show it to us here and we will figure out what it does and if you need it anymore or not.

(You don't need any of these in place to drive the Chinook, as we are not changing the Ford system here.)

I can tell you are smart and capable (hey, you got those Copenhagen things and your headlights figured out, come on!), so I see zero reason that you cannot get it to this point yourself (or with our help) and have it all taken down and labelled when you get to your van guy (since you mentioned not wanting to take too much of his time). I imagine he would be thrilled.

But now those "Spider Webs" have me nervous about cutting things out of the system. I mean, how the hell can I tell whether those little lines (red with yellow in line fuse) from Pos, and small black from Neg are the "long skinny" or solar direct connect that I had installed...and which one of these wires from the pos go to the Blue Sea? The only one I can identify for sure is the 1/0 inverter line!

Again, you're not living in the Chinook right now, right? So just remove the wires from the house batteries as described above. Whatever is left after that, if anything... show us. Forget the LVD - that and its spiderwebs are going in the bin (I hope!). You and your guy (and us if needed) will have no problem at all building it back up. But what if you somehow missed something? Say an invisible, transparent wire That thing won't work. That's all. We'll figure it out and make an adjustment. This system is a bit messy, but it is very simple compared to a big boat or something with 10,000 systems.

Another thing we have going in our favor is that Chinook made only very slight incremental changes. And their diagrams are good! I bet your system is sooo similar to mine, from 1999. After I removed my LVD the list of things that unexpetedly no longer worked was.... zero. None. The system just doesn't have any hidden weird things. I mean the LVD is weird (and these days, horrible) but.... it's all shown on the wiring diagram. I found nothing that didn't match.

So (going against your "SO CLOSE" urging, and LVD removal begging), I am actually reconsidering leaving the LVD and Blue Sea "as is."

I'm not sure what "the Blue Sea" is? Maybe you could remind me. But the LVD. Look, I can't force you to do anything. Tho, ha ha, I've tried! But leaving the LVD there is just such a bad, unnecessary idea. I'd like to say a stupid idea. Let's just look at one single disadvantage and ignore the rest. Look at those horrible crimps on those wires. Come on, those are laughable. They were bad on Day 1 and now it's day 7,300 and they have bounced down thousands of miles of highway (that does not improve them!) What happens with bad crimps? Heat. Heat starts fires. Fuses and breakers don't do a single thing to mitigate that. Why leave them there to potentially start your lovely Chinook on fire when they are doing nothing for you any longer? Or, discounting that as an unlikely scare tactic: Why leave them to make troubleshooting any future problem a total nightmare? Why leave those absolutely horrible, automotive "self-resetting" breakers (great, so if there is a problem they just... reconnect .... swell... what could go wrong?).

Really, I can't imagine your van guy - who sounds skilled - would even want to do the job and leave that there. I mean it's like asking a dermatologist to just ignore this one big throbbing lump, but go ahead with my dermabrasion.

Now to be fair, there are hundreds of crappy old crimps all over the Chinook. Those were the times. But at least those are all on smaller wires, that carry smaller loads. Not on big parts of the DC distribution system that you don't even need anymore.

Okay, got that out of my system. Whew.

I understand that there would be issues of interference between the Blue Sea and Orion XS IF Blue Sea was operating.

I'm sorry but I have completely forgotten what you are referring to as "The Blue Sea."

BUT, if I were to use the manual shut off and keep it off, those things would all go away. And I could effectively combine a few things--like Solar and Blue Sea loads, and Orion XS and IP22 loads on a single lug on the Positive bus of the Lynx Distributor (Orion and IP22 won't ever run at same time) to have everything fit onto the Lynx.

I don't love that idea of "doubling up" on the Lynx, plus the Lynx fuses can't fuse down to 60a. I would design the system to have enough fuses of the proper sizes. In the same way, you can't put smaller wires on the Lynx. Same reason, fuses are too large to protect the wire. You would need to add something like a Blue Sea 5025 or 5046 to handle the smaller wires. There is still a gap though between around 100a and 30a with this approach. Or use something like the Blue Sea Safety Hub 150 (part #7748) which handles three jobs (the Lynx, a negative bus, and fusing for smaller wires). The 7748 can take Midi fuses from ~250a down to 30a, and ATC blade fuses from 30a to 1a. So it can do large distribution and small distribution both. While I wouldn't always choose the Safety Hub 150, I did use one when re-doing the Chinook, because it fit the scenario well, and is very compact. No need for extra pigtails (that you need to fuse) going to separate small fuse blocks. But the main thing is that there are lots of "right" ways to do it. As long as it's tidy, everything has OCP (over-current protection), and any wires coming right off the battery have fuses that meet the AIC rating. None of these ways call for the LVD though ( )

So for two examples of "paths" for your DC distribution:

1) House bank ---> MRBF fuseholder/fuse ---> Main battery switch ---> Lynx ---> Blue Sea 5025 or 5046 fuse block. Plus Shunt ---> negative bus bar.

2) House bank ---> MRBF fuseholder/fuse ---> Main battery switch --- Safety Hub 150 (BS 7748). Plus shunt.

You would use MRBF main fuse/holder on the battery in any case because it has the proper AIC rating to handle a battery bank short (Lynx Mega fuses and Safety Hub's Midi fuses do not, so same same between the two). This would be a Blue Sea 5191 or 2151 (all of these Blue Sea part numbers can be searched on their website to see more about them).

To do the full Blue Sea and LVD elimination, I need more encouragement and specific advice as to how to go about it without screwing it up.
David

I hope I have given you that here? But if not, come on back at me.

[Blue~Go]

I've annotated your photo with my ideas for the wires. You will have a big advantage over me though, in that you will be able to follow the wires back to get an idea of where they come from, which I cannot do by looking at the photo.

So take this as a starting point. But compare to the combination of the diagram (in above post) and what you can see when you start following the wires back (and too on the three big wires, their sizes).

[Blue~Go]

Pardon my drawing skills and lack of fancy software, but I drew out one example of how your new DC distribution could go. In case it helps you to visualize.

More text below.

BTW, here is a real Safety Hub 150, vs. my crude drawing:
Cover off:

Cover on (the posts outside the cover are the negative bus):


To spell it out.

House bank is in upper left.

--Starting with the positive take-off, there is a Blue Sea 5191 MRBF holder and Blue Sea 5189 250amp MRBF fuse.
--Then 1/0 or larger positive cable to a Blue Sea 6004 Battery Switch
--Then 1/0 or larger positive cable to a Blue Sea Safety Hub 150 (7748)
-- From the four larger Midi fuse posts:
a) 100 amp Midi fuse (BS 5256) and 1/0AWG red wire to Inverter
b) 60 amp Midi fuse (BS 5253) and 6AWG red wire to Brown Box
c) 60 amp Midi fuse (BS 5253) and 4AWG red wire to Orion "out" terminal
d) 60 amp Midi fuse (BS 5253) and 6AWG red wire to IP22 Charger

--From the ATC blade fuse section of the Safety Hub:
e) 30 amp fuse to orig solar controller, if keeping (I think that's 12 AWG wire)
f) 30 amp fuse to new solar controller (looks like 10AWG?)

-- The temp sensor lug from the BMV 712 shunt goes to a positive battery post (has inline fuse included). This also powers the shunt.

-- Now starting from the Negative house battery take-off
-- 1/0 or better yellow or black wire to the Shunt "battery" post
-- 1/0 or better yellow or black wire from the Shunt "load" post to the Negative bus that is part of the Safety Hub 150
-- 1/0 yellow or black wire from the shunt "load" post to the inverter (or could be any other negative wire - just taking one wire off the Safety hub negative bus to keep any post from being too cluttered)

-- Now we are on the negative bus of the Safety Hub 150:
a) 4AWG yellow or black wire to chassis (frame - bolt lug using existing hole in frame)
b) 12AWG yellow or black to orig solar controller
c) 10 AWG (?) yellow or black to new solar
d) 4AWG yellow or black to Orion
e) 6AWG yellow or black to IP22 Charger

Side note: From Orion "in" terminal, a red 4AWG wire toward the start battery positive post to a Blue Sea 5191 MRBF holder and a Blue Sea 5178 60 amp MRBF fuse.

That's it I think. Now every wire is fused, and all organized. There is a main battery switch. And a shunt for keeping track of things, plus allowing a Smart Network for the Orion, the IP22, and maybe a future Victron solar controller.

Note: It's 5 a.m. here so this is just an example and it's possible I missed something.

[deppstein]

Blue...now you have me feeling guilty about the amount of time you are putting into this on my account. Perhaps somewhere along the way while on my Coast-to-Coast Odyssey in Sept/Oct we can find a way to meet up so I can at least buy you a good meal! Seriously. Great Thanks.

Your "Pep" talk worked. I am ready. "Put me in Coach!!!" Bouyed by the clear, useful information provided herein, along with the support of the "deep bench" that this Forum provides (I've already found several other old threads to be useful to this current project), I am going to put aside my "electrically challenged" persona and look at this as just another project to solve (something, as you have pointed out, I'm good at). I'll take it one step at a time.

First off, I will take this traveling down time to take the batteries out so I can more easily trace and identify that "spider's web" of cables...take them off one at a time to see what won't run/physically trace them...whatever it takes. You're right...it won't affect my being able to run the Rig periodically as I am want to do. Then, with everything extra removed, I'll have clear sense of exactly what's needed for the new install (Eddie will certainly be happy about that).

Speaking of Eddie...I think his stated willingness to work with me if I used Victron stuff colored my vision a bit when it came to the Lynx Distributor. For all the reasons you described, it doesn't fit this project. I have taken a closer look at your suggestion of the Blue Sea Hub 150, and do indeed think I can make that work well for the Positive side of things (especially since I can use a separate bus for the Inverter wire SINCE IT IS ALREADY FUSED NEAR THE BATTERY WITH A 150--HAD THAT DONE ON THE INSTALL). So, since that is really my only serious deviation from his "Victron Mantra" I think he'll be able to live with that. On the negative side, I think I'll be able to happily and practically stay in the Victron lane with a Victron Bus tied to the Victron Smart Shunt. And, of course, both chargers are Victron. So good with him there as well. It will take me some time, but I will develop a full wiring, fusing, and connection plan that I think he will be happy with (basically all that we have talked about here previously).

Thanks to all of the information you provided in these last posts, I am also feeling confident and capable of removing the Blue Sea (which, by the way, refers to the Blue Sea 7622 ARC that I currently have in place as the replacement for the old Sure Power 1315). Same with getting rid of the LVD, now that you have clearly shown me that I don't need any of it--once I put in a REAL battery cut-out and run that new "not so long skinny" from House to Distribution Panel. I'm even feeling my oats about installing the designated IP22 outlet using Charger Breaker myself.

Eddie says that he thinks he'll have time for me somewhere around the beginning of May, and my plan is to have everything that is my responsibility ready by then for sure. So, with any luck, I will be screaming on that beam reach, planning like never before, as I head into summer!

...So now you can go catch up on your sleep! I'll certainly keep you posted on my progress...not to mention all those questions I'm sure I'll have along the way- In fact, I came up with one this morning...is it OK to use a 3/8" thick by 1" wide piece of 110 copper flat bar to fashion my own bus bar-Smart Shunt connection (it will involve drilling holes and shimming the bottom of the bus bar to level with the Smart Shunt, but that doesn't seem like too much of a problem)?
Onward
David

[Blue~Go]

Blue...now you have me feeling guilty about the amount of time you are putting into this on my account. Perhaps somewhere along the way while on my Coast-to-Coast Odyssey in Sept/Oct we can find a way to meet up so I can at least buy you a good meal! Seriously. Great Thanks.

I'm glad it's helpful. Just happened to come up at a time when I have some free time, and plus you always come back having done the work to try to understand -- so it's a two-way street.

Your "Pep" talk worked. I am ready. "Put me in Coach!!!" Bouyed by the clear, useful information provided herein, along with the support of the "deep bench" that this Forum provides (I've already found several other old threads to be useful to this current project), I am going to put aside my "electrically challenged" persona and look at this as just another project to solve (something, as you have pointed out, I'm good at). I'll take it one step at a time.

I'm pleased. I did worry I was being too "tough love" so I'm glad you took it in the spirit intended.

First off, I will take this traveling down time to take the batteries out so I can more easily trace and identify that "spider's web" of cables...take them off one at a time to see what won't run/physically trace them...whatever it takes. You're right...it won't affect my being able to run the Rig periodically as I am want to do. Then, with everything extra removed, I'll have clear sense of exactly what's needed for the new install (Eddie will certainly be happy about that).

Perfect.

Speaking of Eddie...I think his stated willingness to work with me if I used Victron stuff colored my vision a bit when it came to the Lynx Distributor. For all the reasons you described, it doesn't fit this project. I have taken a closer look at your suggestion of the Blue Sea Hub 150, and do indeed think I can make that work well for the Positive side of things (especially since I can use a separate bus for the Inverter wire SINCE IT IS ALREADY FUSED NEAR THE BATTERY WITH A 150--HAD THAT DONE ON THE INSTALL).

The Lynx distributors, etc. can be slick. But they are a bit bulky and they don't give you a way to provide fusing in the 30-100-ish amp range -- which you have a few of. But they are just a form factor, so to speak. The way you would be using one doesn't really add (or take away if you don't use it) any "Victron-ness."

So, since that is really my only serious deviation from his "Victron Mantra" I think he'll be able to live with that.

Sounds like he is an electrician, so I'm sure he won't have any problem with that. It's not like we're subbing in some cheap/crappy substitute.

I think I'll be able to happily and practically stay in the Victron lane with a Victron Bus tied to the Victron Smart Shunt. And, of course, both chargers are Victron. So good with him there as well. It will take me some time, but I will develop a full wiring, fusing, and connection plan that I think he will be happy with (basically all that we have talked about here previously).

Right. I think the big plus for you with the Orion, IP22, and shunt-plus-alarm buzzer or BMV 712 is that you will be able to create a Smart Network between them, and also easily monitor them. Specific fuses or bus bars (whether they be Lynx or Blue Sea) aren't really needed for this functionality.

I only know you a little bit, but I have a feeling you will be happier for having sussed out the old system, cleaned it out, and then having a really good handle on the new stuff. Because you've "been in there."

Thanks to all of the information you provided in these last posts, I am also feeling confident and capable of removing the Blue Sea (which, by the way, refers to the Blue Sea 7622 ARC that I currently have in place as the replacement for the old Sure Power 1315).

Oh of course! I could NOT think of what you were referring to. I had forgotten you didn't still have the Surepower; but I have a feeling that Mom & Pop probably just stuck the 7622 right into the "hole" left from the Surepower, so kind of the same thing. Yes, it has no place in the system once you have the Orion. And you are replacing those original wires (even if they were the correct size, the Orion can't use those thick-stranded wires and need actual marine fine-stranded cable, such as Ancor or equivalent).

Same with getting rid of the LVD, now that you have clearly shown me that I don't need any of it--once I put in a REAL battery cut-out and run that new "not so long skinny" from House to Distribution Panel. I'm even feeling my oats about installing the designated IP22 outlet using Charger Breaker myself.

My mission here is complete

Eddie says that he thinks he'll have time for me somewhere around the beginning of May, and my plan is to have everything that is my responsibility ready by then for sure. So, with any luck, I will be screaming on that beam reach, planning like never before, as I head into summer!

Okay so he's not working on the Chinook until May? Oh you have PLENTY of time to get this all figured out, prepped, and ready to roll. Maybe you'll even step it further along, who knows?

Oh, I wanted to say one other thing about something from above: Your mention of using an existing inverter fuse or breaker. Of course you can. You can run that inverter wire to the "in" post of the Safety Hub (that way it is downstream of the switch and MRBF fuse, as it must be). But... since there is room for it on the safety hub with a Midi fuse, I'm curious what type of fuse you are using for it now? I mean, I just wonder if it's decent quality and/or otherwise warrants having another "thing" in there taking up space. Maybe it does. That would leave you with an empty Midi fuse in case you add something else in the future that warrants a large fuse. Of course you could just use a Midi 100a fuse for the inverter now and then you'd still have the other option for future and it would be tidier now. But let's at least make sure that whatever fuse or breaker you are using now is good, ok?

...is it OK to use a 3/8" thick by 1" wide piece of 110 copper flat bar to fashion my own bus bar-Smart Shunt connection (it will involve drilling holes and shimming the bottom of the bus bar to level with the Smart Shunt, but that doesn't seem like too much of a problem)?

I knew you were going to be good at this I do this often to make installations more compact. Couple of notes:

1) As you have figured out, you may need to shim one component.

2) Always make sure that these are running between super secured pieces. In other words, you wouldn't put one on, say, a battery post because batteries always move a tiny bit, and that can overstress the terminals. But say between the switch and the Safety hub? Sure, absolutely.

2) There are pre-made "link bars" by Blue Sea which are nice IF they fit your use case (see BS 9159 and 9160 - one is shorter and one longer). Why are these nice? Well in addition to being pre-made, they are tinned copper. That makes them much more resistant to corrosion. They are the equivalent of more than 4/0 cable, so plenty thick. (I don't have one in hand right now but want to say they are like 1/4" x 3/4" or 1/4" x 1" -- either way better than 4/0 equivalent.

Note that Marinco also makes link bars. I ordered a couple of these to check them out and IMO they somehow missed on the calculations (?). I measured them and compared the millage to AWG wire and they seem to be a bit meager (I want to say maybe a little below 1/0 but I don't have that off the top of my head). They are nothing like the Blue Sea ones. I wouldn't recommend.

For making my own, I buy 110 copper from McMaster Carr. I have a heirarchy:

1) IF the size suits (which unfortunately it usually doesn't), I buy their plated bar stock. That would be these:
https://www.mcmaster.com/products/bar-s ... ded-edges/

2) If those aren't going to fit my purpose, my next choice is this, which is not plated but has nice rounded edges:
https://www.mcmaster.com/products/bar-s ... d-edges-9/

3) Lastly, I will choose this squared copper bar stock (scroll down for the bars):
https://www.mcmaster.com/products/bar-s ... +bar+stock

With any of the plain copper ones, I'll polish them right before installing them. Helps at least stave off the corrosion.

A note on sizes. I did some calculations on square mm between AWG size wire and various sizes of bar stock. So I could figure out what the equivalents were. I won't drag all that into the forum here, but I'll give a couple of examples (and feel free to ask if you are trying to equal some other wire size)

• 3/16" x 3/4" bar stock .1406 = 90.7 sq mm (between 2/0, 67.43 sq mm and 4/0, 107.2 sq mm)

• 1/8" x 1" bar stock .125 = 80.63 sq mm (between 2/0, 67.43 sq mm and 4/0, 107.2 sq mm)

• 1/8" x 3/4 bar stock is .09375 = 60.48 sq mm (above 1/0, 53.49 sq mm and halfway toward 2/0, which is 67.43 sq mm)

By my calcs your 3/8" x 1" bar stock is around 240 square mm, which would be like double 4/0 wire size -- hence much, much larger than necessary.

I'll show my math so you can let me know if I'm doing anything wrong (not a math major!):
3/8" = .375"
.375" x 1" = .375 square inch
.375 square inch = 241.9 square mm
4/0AWG wire is 107.2 square mm in copper area.

Onward
David

Indeed!

PS: I see you mention a 150a fuse for the inverter. A couple of notes:

1) 1/0 wire can handle 150a, so you are ok there.
2) OTOH, at least with my Xantrex 1500, they recommended a 150a fuse; so they may recommend a 100a fuse for the 1,000 watt. That said, you are typically protecting the wire, not the device, so you can also ignore that recommendation if you choose to. But there are 150a Midi fuses, so you could still use a spot on the Safety Hub with a 150a fuse if desired. I of course am curious what you are using now and maybe keeping.

[deppstein]

Blue...again, amazinng info here. Thank you.

After doing a quick study of your hand-drawn diagram of the Hub 150, looking at the real deal, and reading your line descriptions, you do indeed having me thinking again as to whether or not I need the separate bus bar-to-Smart Shunt set up I mentioned for the Negative side, or whether or not I can get it all comfortably on the Hub 150. Looks like your scheme has me doubling on one of the negatives for chassis ground and the 1/0 out (assuming you don't think that's a problem?). Also wondered when I didn't see any mention of an existing ground I currently have running from my battery--which, I had assumed should be carried to the new set-up. This makes me think I am wrong about that and it is not needed. Is that correct?

Of course I'll be sure and keep you posted as to which way it goes.

Also, thanks for the all the leads and additional info on "link bars." I love it!

I leave on Sunday for a week...Memphis to help a friend build a new greenhouse. So, I will likely be slower than usual in posting or responding.
David

[Blue~Go]

After doing a quick study of your hand-drawn diagram of the Hub 150, looking at the real deal, and reading your line descriptions, you do indeed having me thinking again as to whether or not I need the separate bus bar-to-Smart Shunt set up I mentioned for the Negative side, or whether or not I can get it all comfortably on the Hub 150. Looks like your scheme has me doubling on one of the negatives for chassis ground and the 1/0 out (assuming you don't think that's a problem?).

Technically yes, you can have more than one lug on a larger terminal. Of course it can be nice to only have one -- and 3-4 results in an untidy "spider" shape. But two can usually be handled. On the negative side there is no worry about it being on a specific fuse or etc. like there is on the positive side so whatever makes sense is good. It's basically just a return path, that's kind of all in one bucket.

Really the entire negative system on a setup like this is all "common." So any wire could go to any post, and the one post that ends up with two could be any of them -- whatever works best physically.

Couple of things though:

---In principle, it's good to put larger loads closer to the "root" (so you wouldn't put the inverter negative way out at one end of a bus bar if you could help it).

--You do need to make sure that any circuit has a logical path through negative wires that is as large or larger (wire size) than the positive. I'll give you an example:

I used the chassis ground for the negative for my 1/0 positive wire that goes from my start battery to the house battery (today I might run a pair of wires - certainly if they were 4AWG I would because that's easier). But so anyway, let's look at that whole individual circuit, if that is ALL I had done.

1) Positive house to positive start - that's all 1/0 cable.
2) Negative running through frame (chassis) - that's ostensibly 1/0 worthy.
3) 8AWG negative jumper from battery to frame: Bzzzzzzt
4) Small (forget what size it was) negative jumper from Ford start battery to body sheet metal, thence to frame: Bzzzt

So I had to upgrade those two jumpers: A 1/0 wire leading from "load" side of shunt to frame (and at least that large from "battery" side of shunt to battery). And an upgraded jumper from Ford start negative to fender (pain!).

This is just one example but the point is you have to make sure every "circuit" has a path that is the size you think it is.

Of course for this precise example, I'd say (and I think you agreed) that just running full 4AWG positive and negative cables all the way from the Orion to both ends (start battery to house neg bus, with 4AWG jumper from Orion to Neg bus) will be easier.

Typically the battery jumpers and the first wires to the switch/bus bars/shunt will be larger. So say since your inverter cable is 1/0 you might make them 2/0 or larger. In this case I think you'd be okay with 1/0 as you can comfortably fuse it to 250a, and the main reason you have such large cable to the inverter is voltage drop.

-- And of course only one wire can be on the "battery" side of the shunt - which is the one going to the battery post.

Also wondered when I didn't see any mention of an existing ground I currently have running from my battery--which, I had assumed should be carried to the new set-up. This makes me think I am wrong about that and it is not needed. Is that correct?

Have a look at the Safety Hub negative bus - the top post. See it shows a 4AWG wire to chassis ground? That's it. That is essentially going "from your negative battery post" (except for one thing, don't load up battery posts, and for two it needs to be on the "load" side of the shunt or it will be a "sneaker load" that gets past the shunt -- so DON'T put a wire back going right from the battery negative terminal to the frame/chassis. You might choose to make that larger, just for margin. But since your inverter does not pass through the chassis ground, and your Orion also will not use it, it's really only covering the brown box loads. That's why I typed it in as a 4AWG (you will have some of that spare, no doubt). Guessing anything new you add later on will have both positive and negative wires to the SH and will not use a chassis ground, so it will never become "more loaded" with larger loads.

(That's what I do. I don't add any new items using the chassis ground; instead I run both positive and negative wires to my main DC distribution - so the loads on the chassis ground don't ever get any larger but just stay as the original Chinook ones - make sense? Well actually I have reduced them slightly, as, eg I have changed the refrigerator wiring to a larger positive/negative wire pair - so that no longer uses the chassis ground.)

I leave on Sunday for a week...Memphis to help a friend build a new greenhouse. So, I will likely be slower than usual in posting or responding.
David

Fair enough. I have a project I need to start on too, so that works out fine.

BTW, I'm still curious to see what you have now for an inverter fuse/breaker, and where it is located --- if you want to show me?

[Blue~Go]

PS: I don't know if this will help you mentally visualize. If it does, great. If it doesn't.... then just forget you ever read it.

But so each individual load item has a complete circuit *somehow* through the Chinook. Meaning, a positive leg that comes (ultimately) from the battery positive post, and a negative leg that returns (ultimately) to the negative battery post.

But in our type of system (common negative or ground), there is a difference in the two legs:

1) The positive leg is always, in some way, specific to the item being powered (even though it might come initially via a larger leg, such as say the DC fused items in the brown box with their large fused lead powering the whole box -- but still, you can think of each of THOSE legs as starting at their fuse. From the fuse onward, they have a specific job. Orange to TV, Green to Stereo, etc.

2) The negative, OTOH, is kind of like one big pool (common ground). Now there are still some rules, like each item must be able to make some path back to the battery via a leg that is at least as large (wire size) as the outgoing more dedicated positive leg). But it could be any path, basically. It's more of a common pot.

3) That said, you can get things like ground loops if you try to sort of tack onto other things too much, so as many "homerun" legs as possible is good. By that I mean say you have a water pump under the kitchen sink, and that pump has a positive and negative wire going right to the battery. Now you run a positive wire straight from the battery to a new load that is further away than the water pump. But then you take the negative wire from that new thing and you only and specifically bring it just back to the water pump, and "tack it on" there. That's not great practice. But I don't see you having any reason to do that, so it's just an aside and not something I see coming up in this specific refit.

If that helps, great. If not, you can just ignore it.

[deppstein]

...I'll have to do a little more digesting on all that "negative ground" stuff to have it fully sink in (remember, I'm electronically challenged"!). But I'll get there.

And, I was able to dig up a picture of the Inverter Breaker!...had sent one to Eddie to show him that I had enough room on that wall to mount the Orion XS. As you can see, its a big honkin, legit looking thing! And close to the battery for sure, so I'm thinking I can easily keep it and mount that POS Inverter 1/0 right on the inboard end of the Hub, right?

David