Chinook RV

I have a 2004 Chinook Baja, and after reading many posts in this forum surrounding various electrical component upgrades, I figured best to bring the entire system up to present day. I came across the attached and wanted to find out what some of the more experienced users thought.

That's a pretty nice drawing, though maybe a bit higher level than I'd like. I like the components, if those are the ones you're thinking of using. I have some Victron myself. I see a few things I might change and some comments.

1) The DC circuit needs a connection to frame ground, as some of the circuits currently go to the frame ground instead of back to the batteries. In the original Chinook the batteries have a direct connection to the frame, which I don't see in the drawing. Note the Ground To Frame from the Multiplus is for AC and is internally bonded to AC Neutral when not hooked up to shore power. It is definitely required (for that bonding), but is not part of the DC side, so that doesn't count as a frame connection for DC.

The RV Breaker Panel should also have its own connection to frame ground for the AC. At least, from what I understand (it was explicitly specified as critical for safety in the new distribution panel that I purchased).

2) Electrical code requires a separate circuit breaker for power coming in from shore before any major components, for safety. I put mine after the Auto Transfer Switch (ATS) and before the Multiplus (Victron docs do state to have an AC circuit breaker before coming in to the Multiplus, see Multiplus manual page 9). The EMS Surge Protector, while also good to have (I have one), is not the same as a circuit breaker and does not count for that purpose.

While you could place the circuit breaker before the ATS, and even the Surge Protector (thereby protecting it/them, too), I figured better to protect the Multiplus from the generator going crazy, even if this way the ATS/Surge Protector could be sacrificed. Also, there isn't so much to an ATS so I'm guessing its less likely to get burned out, but that is sheer guess by me.

3) Depending on your usage, you might consider a Battery to Battery charger, as well. If you're moving around every few days, or there is a lot of cloudy/rainy weather, it can be handy to fast charge the batteries while driving. I have the Sterling 60 Amp B2B charger, which has a Lithium charge profile. This way the alternator might be at 14.4 volts for the starter battery, but at 14.2 volts for house Lithium. And it plays around to fool the alternator into delivering up to 60 amps, and watches the house batteries so it can stop charging them when it sees them getting full. They have larger B2B chargers, but then I figured I'd have to put in a second alternator instead of going with the 200 Amp, which fit perfectly in the current engine space.

The B2B made a big difference when I had my lead acid house batteries, but since I had it installed already when I switched to lithium, I can't say how much better it is over just the alternator. Though from what I understand, you really don't want to ever have a single charge point, i.e. the alternator, trying to charge two different battery chemistries. So I personally would not hook up the alternator charging directly to the house batteries.

4) When its working, watch daily use and charging levels. Lithium batteries, from my understanding, prefer being in the 20%-80% range. If you're finding that your equipment/usage is holding the batteries at 100% (sitting on shore power, in particular), I'd consider using the switches in that diagram to manually control things a bit.

Put the batteries inside the coach, to keep them in better temperatures, both high and low. Charging must be turned off below 35 f, and as technomadia talks about below, using the batteries in high temps a lot may also considerably reduce their life.

The below blog post from Technomadia is interesting reading, and they have a number of other blog posts on Lithium, dicussing other things.

https://www.technomadia.com/2015/02/liv ... ry-update/

With the upgraded components and wiring, and fitting them somewhere, you have your work cut out for you

I just want to add some question here. Why not use the LOAD output from the solar controller, and the connect the RV Load Disconnect to it with the fuse in between? It is not clear to me how you intend to use the unlabeled Blue Sea System disconnect since you draw the three connects as a "T" so is it a A-B selector switch, or a disconnect switch? The advantage of doing that is that you can use the solar controller to turn the DC on and off remotely, instead of have to do it with a manual switch. Is the reason you are not using the load output because it does not have sufficient current for the DC panel? Another advantage of doing that is you do not have a LVD, and I think the solar controller can take care of that and more ("intelligent Load output function" and "BatteryLife" feature). You are paying for the functions, but not take advantage of it the way you draw the system.

I think I understand why you do not have a breaker for the Multiplus. You are using it as the second ATS , so that if there is no shore/gen, all your AC outlets will still work because the inverter will kick in. I would contact Vitron to make sure, since I think I would put a breaker between it and the Multiplus like Bob suggested. I would draw the diagram with separate DC and AC panel to make the separation more clear. You have both AC and DC going to the same panel, but in reality, they are separate modules.

I like your diagram, but there is one thing that bothers me is the yellowish line going from the BMV 712 to the shunt with the red line next to it. I think it means that the meter need the positive wire to work, but does it really going to the shunt? Obviously I am not familiar with Vitron line of product, and have no clue about the specific related to BMV 712, so maybe that is why it is confusing to me.

In the diagram, I assume you mean the fuse/switch between the panels and solar charger, which does look like BlueSea to me. I assume from having seen other diagrams similar to this that it being used as a switch/fuse and the (3) panels connect in parallel to it (I'm using a small busbar just before it to hang the wires on) There should always be a fuse for the solar charging system, of course. Having it between the panels and charger, and a combined fuse/switch, means you can switch the panels out of the circuit if you want to work on the charger or wiring. Otherwise you need to work at night or throw blankets on the panels for safety.

In addition, the Smart Solar charger wants to be connected to the batteries before the panels. If the fuse/switch is between the charger and batteries, then if the fuse is tripped or switched off, you really should go cover the panels before resetting the fuse, and then go back out to uncover the panels after.

I agree you can use the SmartSolar features to turn things off and on, perhaps. I don't have that model, but from what I understand of that 'Load' wiring, it is limited to the current of the model. The largest they make with 'Load' wiring is in that diagram, 20Amps. That means 20A is the largest load you can run through it, with power coming from either/both charger itself or batteries (I think). I think it is really for convenience for small systems, not a full RV. Our LVD is 50 Amp. No way would I want wiring going through two separate paths, one from battery to distribution circuit panel, and the other from battery through SmartSolar to distribution panel. And you'd still have to turn off the RV Load Disconnect switch when the batteries got too low.

Or else drop your entire DC system from 50 Amps down to 20 Amps (including fridge, furnace, water pump, lights, alarms, etc) and put in a master fuse to enforce that, which seems like a downgrade.

Me, I've upgraded by adding USB ports all over for charging and running phone, tablet, small fan, etc, and then also created a DC hookup for my laptop and even a large monitor (I bought one that takes 12-24V DC input, and came with an external power brick for AC). Going DC to AC to DC in those situations loses you something like 10-20%? I prefer to keep my inverter in a standby mode, or even off, when not needing it, as my Multiplus draws close to 2 Amps when doing nothing in full turned-on mode (it does have high efficiency in use, as high as 94%, but you still get that nearly 2A overhead, which adds up to 20 or so amp/hours a day).

Do note, anyone thinking of adding lots of USB or hard wiring extra DC outlets or devices - the original wiring for the DC system was kind of predicated on usage back then, using a few lights, maybe plugging in something to a DC outlet. Voltage losses will probably add up if using a bunch of devices off the long strings of original wiring that included the lighting. I upgraded my DC wiring when adding all my new DC stuff.

Yes, the Multiplus is an inverter and charger, and will kick in if there is no incoming AC power (from wherever, shore or generator). It can also be configured to boost incoming power, in case of brownouts, or if your coach is trying to pull > 30 amps. It does have its own ATS for doing this with the outgoing AC 1. It also has an outgoing AC 2 line that is a pass-thru that does not go through its ATS and will never get power from the inverter.

This can be very useful if, for example. you have Air Conditioning using the pass-thru AC 2 line on the Multiplus (never using inverter), and the rest of the coach on the inverter-capable AC output - then if the AirCond is running and you start the microwave, the inverter will boost the power so the microwave can run. I.e. the Multiplus is using all 30 amps coming in from shore, and supplements that with extra amps from the inverter using the batteries. Without that, if both AC and Microwave happen to go into high-energy cycles at the same time, they will collectively pull over 30 amps from shore and a fuse will blow (at least, one hopes the shore's fuse blows!).

The circuit breaker before the Multiplus is specified by Victron in their manual, page 9, to protect the electronics inside the Multiplus. Highlighted by them "The AC input must be protected by a fuse or magnetic circuit breaker rated at 50A or less, and cable cross-section must
be sized accordingly."

The BMV-712 comes with its own shunt that has its own little circuit board attached. It uses an RJ12 6 pin UTP cable between the monitor and shunt to get data from the shunt (the shunt can monitor house batteries, and either the starter battery or temperature on the house battery). The small red wire supplies that little circuit board and the BMV itself with power (makes it easy to have the monitor anywhere in the RV with only one wire running back to the shunt, no power splice).

Assuming Victron hardware will be used, they have a free book on their website called, I think, "Wiring Unlimited". Its worth looking at.

Whew. Didn't mean to write so much, I just kind of like the electrical stuff (spent soo much time reading up before doing anything in my Concourse). And I am not an electrician, so disclaimer this is just how I understand things, and assuming I didn't confuse myself during this long posting

I figured that the LOAD is not used because it is only 20 A. But Vitron does carries a 50 A version. Don't know how much is the price difference between that. If the solar is never meant to be more than 20A, then it is a waste of money, but it may a good idea to get the 50A version to make it easier to increase the solar output (not a lot of space on our roof, however), and be able to take advantage of the controller's load capability.

For my setup, I am trying to see if I can use the original switch above the driver seat for the LVD to control the load from a solar controller. It is only 30A, but as long as I don't use the reefer in DC ,mode, I think I am OK. Do not know if there is a way to easily turn the load on/off on the Vitron, however. I am trying to avoid read their manual...

I think if you look closer at Victron's line of MPPT solar chargers you'll find that only a few of the ones at 20A and below have the extra wiring for Load, and a built-in LVD capability. The others only have the usual PV in from the panels and Battery out.

They do have a separate Battery Protect (BP) device that is basically an LVD (a programmable relay that drops out under specific low or high voltage conditions). Note that their Battery Protect's are one-way devices. Do not use in a situation where current could flow back and forth on a wire, like hooked up to the Multiplus inverter charger, which could be inverting or charging on the same DC wire (the BP will burn out instantly according to Victron).

Yeah, unless you're thinking of buying Victron or really like reading up on stuff, I wouldn't try to fully figure them out. They have multiple product lines that are programmable to various degrees, that stretch back for many years (meaning legacy stuff vs newer stuff), and across industries (big in boating, little bit in RV, quite a bit industrial usage). They are big in Europe in general, and some here in US for boating. Trying to figure out just how much can be done through wiring, programming interfaces, and DIP switches, and networked between their products, is tiring. And it doesn't help that they prefer to support their products through registered dealers, instead of any support for DIY'ers that bought retail somewhere. Though it makes sense, seeing as their products are usually bought together as part of complex systems that dealers and trained consultants design and implement. They do have a community support section on the website, but there is no guarantee when/if anyone will help you. But I love all the features available, and I think they build quality equipment.

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I'm a little confused when you say LVD for load from a solar controller? The solar charger is just that - charging. For Lithium you might want to cut out when batteries are full, but that is for an OV (Over Voltage) situation. The LVD is to drop out for Low Voltage (also called UV Under Voltage) to stop any loads on the battery before it is completely depleted/dead. For that you need the LVD between the batteries and everything else except chargers.

This is how the original Chinook systems work, where the solar charger (and alternator) has its own wiring straight to the batteries, bypassing the LVD. Note the way they had the LVD set up is so if there are loads drawing current from the batteries, the LVD will function. If there is current going the other way, from converter/charger to batteries, the LVD function is not involved (the LVD won't stop that even if is currently triggered to stop current being drawn). Except they also wired in the 'storage' switch to make the LVD shut down like a hard switch, so the battery wouldn't get drawn down by the smoke alarm, etc, while sitting for weeks/months - but that switch also means the charger can't get through then to charge the batteries even if you're plugged in to shore (hence, they wired in the 'alarm' function to let you know you're in storage mode).

Battery <-> LVD <-> DC panel <-> converter/charger
Battery <- 7.5A fuse <- solar charger <- panels
Battery <- solenoid <- alternator charger, except when Jump Start pressed, then it is -> current flow
Battery -> generator

Note that the generator only charges the batteries indirectly through the converter/charger, but has a direct wire to the batteries for its starter. So even if the LVD is triggered, you could kill your batteries by trying to start the generator. At least that is how my Concourse was wired. I've heard that some other models/years had the generator starter off the engine alternator, instead (so you can only start the generator if the engine is running). When my batteries were low one time, I was still able to start the generator by running the engine, as it was able to draw enough current via the alternator to battery to generator path (but did I further hurt my battery doing that, I don't know?).

When you have Lithium and a charger/inverter the situation becomes more complex, because now you need OV and UV relays/switches. But you usually have a single positive cable between batteries and inverter/charger, so how do you have something that essentially allows power both ways normally, or only to battery (UV situation) or from battery (OV situation)? Hopefully the inverter/charger itself can then monitor and start/stop charging or inverting when the batteries need it (or tell it to).

Big Beast, just an FYI because it caught me by surprise. From Victron's manual on 100/20 (same as my 100/50), the panels you buy should have their optimum voltage 5 volts > where you figure your batteries will be at when you want it to connect and start charging.

Top of page 6 of the SmartSolar user manual (not installation guide):
"The controller will operate only if the PV voltage exceeds battery voltage (Vbat).
PV voltage must exceed Vbat + 5V for the controller to start. Thereafter minimum PV voltage is Vbat + 1V."

To me this means with Lithium like mine, which sit around 13.3-13.4 when fully charged and maybe 13.1 when 3/4 discharged, the panels need to be outputting a voltage of >18.1-18.4V for the charger to start working, ever. Many panels on the market on Amazon these days seem to have an optimum voltage in the 16-17.8V range. I did not test this, but to me this means these panels would not work with the SmartSolar charger and Lithium batteries. I bought Renology panels that have 18.9V optimum to be sure there wouldn't be an issue.

If you should end up going with the SmartSolar line of chargers and use panels with less voltage, please let us know here if they end up working. If I had any other panels lying around I'd test it, but I'm not buying one just to see.

Unless, I suppose, you use 2 or more panels in series, where the incoming voltage to the charger will be >30V all the time. I didn't consider that viable, as when I tested mine in series they lost too much power with small shading. I seem to often be parked somewhere that has a few branches over some part of the Concourse roof.

BobW9 wrote: August 22nd, 2020, 6:45 pm I think if you look closer at Victron's line of MPPT solar chargers you'll find that only a few of the ones at 20A and below have the extra wiring for Load, and a built-in LVD capability. The others only have the usual PV in from the panels and Battery out.

Ah, you are absolutely correct. I did not notice that the higher amperage one does not come with load functionality. I was a bit careless when I look at what they have to offer among their solar charger line of products.

The upgrade that I am working on right now can handle the load function up to 30 amp. There is a 40 A version, but I think for my case after the LED upgrade, and not running the fridge in DC mode, I should be fine with only 30A. Anyway, sorry for hijacking the thread, and let's get back to the original topics.

Thank you for all of the input. It is greatly appreciated. I think I may be in over my head on this and probably need to consult a professional.