Transmission temp high with front bike rack

[Doug777]

Hello All.
2003 ford E350 / 6.8L V10
Transmission temperature high With bikes on the front rack.

I would love to get your input..


After much debate ....decided to add a front hitch / Thule bike rack to carry our electric bikes.
Did about 1000 miles in a range of temperature from 60-100 air temperature.

I run Torque Pro app on my android phone to monitor the engine coolant and trans temps.

When running on level ground at roughly sea level .....101 degrees air temp ..
63 mph
Coolant temp 205
Trans fluid temp 195

From your previous posts about trans fluid temps.
My above Transmission fluid temp numbers appear to be on the high side.

Those numbers of mine are on basically level ground 101 degrees outside air.
When I climb the sierras later next month the outside air temp could be in the 90s ...and once I climb that long steep grade I think my trans fluid temp will be over 200 degrees in no time.

Looking at the archive posts by blue-go and deppstein .... It looks like you both added coolers and or fans to bring the transmission fluid temp down to a more comfortable range.

So what would you guys recommend?

Blue-go .... which transmission cooler did you add?
And, was it an addition to the existing trans cooler or was it a swap of the larger cooler for the existing. ?

deppstein.... I saw that you used fans but did you also add a bigger trans cooler ? I saw a reference to the fan model but couldn’t figure out the trans cooler model that you added

I am a big believer in not trying to reinvent the wheel. So I am very interested in what model of transmission cooler you went with and .......if you Had to do it over again......would You do it any different ?
6.8L V10..

Including a photo of the set up and a photo of the android torque pro display ( 90 degrees outside air temp on the photo)

Thanks
Doug

[Doug777]

Just a clarification on the trans fluid temp.

I don’t understand the different trans fluid temp pickups on the torque pro app.

On the android screen the inputs are:
Top left indicator was labeled ford trans fluid temp (method 1)
Lower left indicator was labeled trans fluid temp ( method 3 )

I assume one is pre cooler and one post trans fluid cooler ......
Anyone out there know the difference?

Thanks
Doug

[chin_k]

I vaguely remember seeing an ancillary transmission cooler on my rig, but I have to take a closer look, and it maybe the primary cooler...

Anyway, did you try to see the TFT without the bikes in the front? For deppstein's case, I remember that he tried air scoop, extra fan, etc.. He covers his bikes, but I don't know what is his location and weather is as hot as where you are going. I know for my 2000 Concourse, I have not have any issue climbing hills. I think the highest I got to was maybe 9,000 ft along CA-120, and it was pretty hot like 95F air temperature. I usually turn off my AC just in case, when I climb hills.

[Doug777]

Chin K.....
You are right It would be helpful to have a baseline number without the bikes in place. But, whatever that number is....I still think that if I want to put the bikes in the front I will have to add additional cooling.

You have probably driven the road out of Fresno to shaver, Huntington, Florence lake.
July.... climbing that grade up to the lakes. I will be looking at a scary number and end up pulling to the side of the road to cool off and save my transmission.
But your point is well taken it would be nice to have a baseline temp without bikes and rack.
Thanks
Doug

[chin_k]

Actually, CA-120 is going over the Tioga Pass, near Yosemite. The route you are thinking off out of Fresno is CA-168, which goes over the Westgard Pass, and it is about 7300 ft according to Wiki. The Tioga Pass is almost 10,000 ft. I was more worry about my tire temperature, and did not have my scan gauge on, otherwise, I would be able to tell you what was my TFT. I should keep an eye on the transmission, however. I think it is up for some preventive maintenance due to the age/mileage.

[deppstein]

Doug...got your PM, and am responding here so that all can be kept in the loop.
First of all, welcome to the world of Bikes! We love ours, and use them almost daily...at 70, it is nice to feel like you are 20 again when riding. Also, that Thule Rack you have is perfect companion...did you get the model with the ramp attached?
Your set up of bikes looks very similar to mine, its just that I cover the back Copenhagen Wheel with a Skinz Cover to protect it from the elements. Without it, driving in rain would ruin the Wheel--been there, done that. I have attached a couple of pics that give you a pretty good look at my set up. You can see that I had to mount High Quality Plow Lights (details in a previous post if you are interested) since the Skinz covers completely block the regular headlights. Truth-to-tell, my Plow Lights are BETTER than the regular lights...no foolin.
And yes, I have gone through a number of trials and tribulations in an effort to manage decent air flow, and hence reasonable transmission fluid and water temps. My experiments were initiated by the fact that I blew a transmission in the mountains outside of Santa Fe...the mechanic(terrific) that ended up installing a new after-market Jasper Transmission (with transmission cooler)--the Ford tranny would have taken 3 weeks to be delivered! took a look at my bikes mounted on front and blocking air flow to the grill and said that he strongly suspected that was the cause of my problem. At first I tried using 4" PVC piping to route air under the bikes and up into the grill--my wife called it "the toilet." And it was an abysmal failure...the bends in the pipe were too severe...and the damn contraption did nothing. So, I finally ended up putting the rear wheels as far outboard as I could go to leave room for air to flow through the center of the bikes and into the grill...and, in order to do that, I had to come up with new lighting for the covered standard lenses.
As I said, I already had the transmission cooler (installed with the Jasper rebuild)...I can't tell you whether there was one there from the original Ford configuration or not...but you should check. Mine is about 16" long and 7 " tall, mounted between supports right behind the grill and in front of the AC condenser, which is in front of the radiator. It is a plate and fin type, which, I've read is better than fin and tube, but not as efficient as stacked plate type. And since I could not go bigger, I decided (after more reading) to install a fan unit on the front of the trans cooler in effort to draw in more air (given that I was still partially blocking the flow of air to the grill with the bikes). I ended up with two 5 1/2" SPAL fans side-by-side, which covered most of the trans cooler surface. They were wired together and routed to a switch in the dash. Suffice to say, I thought they would work better than they did...as Chin_k explained, they actually did nothing for me when traveling at more that 40 miles an hour or so, since at higher speeds, the air coming into the grill is actually traveling faster than what the fan motors can pull in. They didn't really seem to have any positive effect, so I just left them off all the time. Oh yea, after the Transmission fiasco, I did buy a Scan Guage II, as per suggestion of Blue-Go and others...had I done that sooner, I might have avoided blowing the transmission, ugh. An expensive lesson! But it has meant that I now watch my transmission fluid and water temps like a hawk. Here's what I can report:

Traveling in spring 60 degree weather in MA on The 90 at 70 mph with no bikes and full air to the grill (remember, fans installed): 170-180 transmission temp and around 192-195 water temp

Traveling in spring 60 degree weather at 70 on The 90 with bikes and covers: 175-180 transmission fluid temp and around 197 water temp

Back in March in CO on the Peak-to-Peak highway from Nederland to Estes Park (10,000 ft +/-), at 50 mph with AC on and bikes mounted with covers: 190-200 transmission fluid temp and 197-205 water temp.

Running on The 90 in South Dakota at the end of May in 90 degrees at 75 mph (I was making time) with AC on and bikes mounted with covers: 195-200 transmission fluid temp with a few blips up to 202 and water temps of 202-215, with a blip up to 217 before it came right back down to 203 and start all over again.

From what I have read, that is perhaps a bit high, but not in a range that has me concerned. Everything I have read seems to indicate that our engines tend to run hot in general, and that I don't need to worry unless water temp gets up to 220 and transmission temp above 230 (though the higher the trans fluid temp, the more frequently the fluid should be changed...I'm now doing mine every 25,000 miles just to be on the safe side.

All that said, after reading here about other Chinookers temp readings, I have been wondering if I can do better under the circumstances (meaning with my bikes up front and covered). So last week, I went in and removed the two fans from the trans cooler--my feeling was/is that they were not helping, and indeed, perhaps they were actually hindering air flow jut by being there. I'll get a chance to test out that theory next week on a run from Boston to VA on the interstate--hoping that I'll see some lower temps as result of fans being gone. Even a little lower would make me happy. Stay tuned.

Hope all of this helps. Questions, just let me know.
David

[chin_k]

deppstein , one thing that come to my mine about the fan is that if the rig is not moving, the fans might be helpful since they will blow the air thru the fins. While in motion, yeah, they are not going to help much. I would keep them on and let them run since you already have them installed.

[deppstein]

Too late Chin_k...I've already pulled them out. While they were in, I tried a little experiment of my own by taking the DeWalt Shop Blower that I have (use it to quickly inflate my Alpacka Rafts) and using it to blow air directly on the fan blades from just outside the grill. It did cause the fan blades to spin, but not as quickly as I imagined it should...or as fast as the motors cause the blades to spin. So, I deduced (perhaps incorrectly) that the blades in front of the transmission cooler might actually be impeding the flow of air. Only way I could figure to test that theory was to remove them. I have kept the wiring in place, so could replace them at some point...but since I don't have any issues at all with temps at low speeds, I don't think I'll do that--unless for some unfathomable (to me) reason, the temp readings actually increase with the fans removed. As I said, Stay Tuned...
David

[chin_k]

Some of the muffin fans use induction motor, and there is very little resistance to spin them. If you feel the magnet catching the blades on some positions, then it will slow down the air flow. I think your deduction is correct, I just want to point out that there can be possible utility when your rig is not moving faster than the fan air flow speed. Nothing beats real world experience, however.

Shop blower have pretty good pressure on them (useful for inflating air beds and air rafts), so the air flow is not as high as low-pressure fans like a garden leaf blower. My leaf blower can do 90 MPH, for example, while my shop vac not so impressive.

There are a few places that I want to bring our bikes with us, and so far, I have not electrify them, or have the chance to setup my rack. A few of the trails do not allow motorized bicycles

[Blue~Go]

I did change the transmission cooler. By that I mean I removed the stock cooler, and put a different one in its place (they occupy the same space just ahead of the radiator).

Perhaps I didn't absolutely need to add a bigger cooler, but I feel better when I see nice, cool transmission temperatures vs. nervously watching the gauge. Anything in my older comments would likely be more accurate, as I was reporting temps closer to when they happened, but I pretty much can't get it over 185º now, even pulling big passes, while towing, in high ambient temps. I would think anything under 200º (occasional) trans temp would be acceptable. Somewhere I have a chart that shows trans longevity vs. temp and basically the cooler the better -- and longer lived.

I did ask the shop what would be too cool. As I remember it they said it should get up over 135º (but if I said something different earlier go by that). I don't have any problem achieving over that on every drive. That' said I don't drive in winter weather with the Chinook so no idea if that would be an issue. (The shop being John Wood where I had my transmission repaired and improved) (I have the 4R100 transmission.)

If I were to do it again I might see if I could find a slightly smaller cooler (but then again this one is tried and true). I went with the one I did upon recommendation by a multiple Ford van/V10 owner who tows heavy. The one "downside" to it is that of course it blocks the radiator a bit more, and throws its heat onto the radiator (as did the original, but it was removing less heat). The result of this is that if I'm towing, pulling a pass, and it's hot out the engine cooling fan will come on a bit more often than it used to (just for a minute or so but you can't mistake that jet engine for anything else). As a result my engine runs just as cool as it ever did; but the fan comes on a bit more often in those high strain situations (typically it comes on as I get to about 200º FWT and then goes off at about 197º which takes about a minute; it will then repeat every few minutes while I'm on my way up a pass or some other extreme maneuver). Normal driving you would never know anything was different (except for nice cool trans temps). I don't think I have ever seen my engine coolant temp over about 202º The fan then immediately comes on and in about a minute it is back to 198º and shuts off.

I figure the transmission is defenseless when it comes to removing heat (except for the trans cooler), whereas the engine does have that cooling fan and can use it. If it happened all the time I would probably look at reducing the cooler size. In my case it's just in hot weather, going uphill while towing, or while running AC and climbing if really hot.

With more stuff blocking the front end it may be different. All I have is the spare tire with a mesh cover (on a Draw Tite bracket that mounts it out from the grille a ways), and in my experiments way back when that did not affect things much or at all vs. nothing in front. My experiment was a specific huge hill run in hot weather with no spare, a bare spare, and the spare with the factory Continental cover on it (solid disc). I didn't like the look of the Continental cover on the front so I went with one made from a Phifertex type material. I prefer the look and it does breathe (bugs brush right off, which I also like).

The ultimate authority for me is the Scan Gauge II's temp readings. As long as I'm seeing FWT below 200º and transmission at 185º or below, I'm a happy camper.

BTW, if you install one of these transmission coolers, a tip is to paint the front black before you install it (I used high temp spray paint). Otherwise your Ford will look like it is wearing braces on its teeth.

Here are some photos:

1) Original trans cooler (in front of radiator)
2) New trans cooler in same spot (before painting black so it's easier to see)
3) New cooler box showing model data