Chinook RV

This is a continuing discussion about paddling boats--canoes, kayaks, pacrrafts, foldable boats, etc. that some of us carry with us. The thread has its origins in the topic "Outside Storage" under the "General" Index category.

Blue-Go...your description of the Alpaca Pack Raft is identical to what my paddling buddy has to say about it. We started out paddling canoes together as kids on a lake (at camp) in northern Wisconsin, eventually graduating to 10-day/2 week trips in the Boundary Waters and Quetico. Then, as we got a bit older, discovering along the way that water flowed down hill and that we wouldn't have to paddle so hard against the wind, we moved on to white water rivers. And, over 20 years, a group of six of us paddled more than 20 rivers throughout North America. Usually 5-7 day trips on continuous stretches of Class II-IV rivers...often with a float plane trip in and out--some trips so remote that we wouldn't see anyone else for the entire trip. Roylex canoes (sometimes with covers) were our boats of choice. I am still a canoe guy at heart--and I still carry my Mad River Kevlar Explorer with me on most Rig Trips. On occasion, my wife and I swap it out for our two sit-on-top custom kayaks.

But, we are now pushing 70--and while we do subscribe to the adage that 70 is the new 50, the dance of getting the canoe up and down from the roof rack of the Rig is beginning to discourage us from getting out on the water. Hence, serious thoughts of getting something that will be easier to prep, and be "good-enough" on both lakes and some white water. The Alpaca Rafts seem to fit the bill perfectly. Compact, well-made, tandem models available...a real boat, not a toy. And, I'm sure there is a pump that we can hook up to our Honda Gen that will take almost all the work out of getting set-up and out on the water. So, if you are indeed going to be getting an Alpaca within the next year, be sure and let me know which model you get and what you think of it after spending some real time in it...we are probably not far behind you!

Glad you started a new thread. I'm going to move some of the beginnings over from the other thread for context.

So, we were talking about outside storage, with canoes on the roof and larger inflatable boats stealthily mounted beneath the chassis (Scott ). Here is what lead up to this thread, for the most part:

deppstein wrote: January 21st, 2019, 5:34 pm Scott...yes, I remember the pic of your inflatable kayak mounted "down-under." Thought then, as I sometimes do now--"You know, having a good pack boat might be just the ticket! I love our canoe, but disassembling the thwart, taking it up and down every time can get old...works well if we are based for a couple of days. But not so good while on the move."

Last year, one of my canoe buddies got an Alpaca Raft Explorer 42...and he LOVES it! Well built, capable of handling real running water, able to be used tandem or solo, very packable, and pretty easy set-up and take down. Will probably be my next boat...though not sure I would choose to mount it "down-under." This one is packable enough to fit into one of my dry bags on the back ladder. Check it out at alpackaraft.com
David

I replied with this (just totally hijacking the thread by this point )
encouraged a friend to buy an Alpacka Yak last year, and then proceeded to use it myself to try it out About five years ago I bought an Advanced Elements Packlite, which is a "poor man's" version of the Alpacka. Even at that, I can't believe the use I've gotten out of the Packlite! It weighs 4# and fits in a file box. I keep the kayak in the "tire locker" along with the paddle (4-part take-apart), the pump, my lifejacket, and booties (plus the Ford jack, my breaker bar, torque wrench, spare belts, socket adapters, and tire patch kit). Oh, and my entry mat. Yep, it's compact. I can also be ready to go in about ten minutes, including changing shoes and etc.

I have a paddling background, and does it measure up to a "real" kayak. No way. But that's not how I use it. I use it to get out on the water with no fuss. I can easily carry it in to a mountain lake. Easy river trips. It's not fun to paddle ten miles, that's for sure. Also the Packlite is pretty marginal in waves (not that it would tip, but waves come over the side). Also it "shrinks" in cold water and there is no easy way to top it up once you've left the pump behind.

The Alpacka is *worlds* better, but sort of the same concept. It is about 6 lbs. and doesn't quite fit in a file box, but otherwise similar. But it has big tubes (water does not come over the side), a way to top up without a pump, and is just all around a more "serious" boat. Paddles better too, although you are never going to mistake it for a real (hard) boat. Basically, for me, it gets me out vs. not because I'm not going to carry a "real" boat at this time in my Chinook.

Somehow, both of these boats captured my fancy whereas the "normal" inflatables didn't (Advanced Frame, etc.). They were still super wide (I prefer to paddle narrow boats), but then weren't super light, tiny, and easy to deal with. I'm sure they do paddle better though, so it all depends on what you like. But the extreme lightness and compactness of the Packlite/Alpacka make them seem kind of otherworldly to me, and I don't compare them in the same way to a real boat. Oh, the Alpacka is also quite comfortable to just lie back and read in

The Packlite is just one boat. I wouldn't particularly recommend it unless you are fairly light and really need to keep the cost down (mine was around $250-300 back in 2013 or so). Although for that it is cool. Alpacka makes a bunch of different models - the one I have used is the Yak, which is what I would call the "basic Packraft" in the size one up from the smallest (leaves room for some gear ahead of your feet).

Neither of them would work well if you are going to paddle a long distance on flat water (where you want some speed) and/or with someone in a real boat (you'd be way back in the dust).

OTOH, I can't even count the number of mountain lakes, streams, and reservoirs I've toodled around on with mine. Would buy again (actually will be buying an Alpacka plus a better paddle this year; will carry the other one set in case a friend wants to come along).

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And now here we are, with a paddling boats thread!

Warning: Long and rambling.

I haven't paddled the Alpacka as much as the Packlite, but I can say a bit more. I did go to Alpacka and test sit a few of the models and options (before advising my buddy who now has the very boat I'd like, but really that's not why!)

So the one I have paddled (and will buy) is sort of the basic workhorse. It's not meant for anything super specific. They do have boats that are optimized for whitewater (if I were still in my 20's-30's I would love to give one a go in the same places I took my "old fashioned" kayak), and they have some that are optimized for hauling gear (bikes, hunting spoils, etc.). They also have one (Scout) that is super tiny for, say, backpacking and just crossing a placid stream to get to the other side. The Alpacka is the most generic (but then you could also say versatile).

If one settles on the Alpacka, then it comes in four sizes. If you are used to a regular boat they will all feel crazy short, like you are "wearing" them. Not in the strapped in to your whitewater boat way, but just that your feet come pretty much to the end of the boat. But not in a cramped way, just surprising. They are all kinda beamy (my biggest paddling complaint but I guess you just can't make a 20" inflatable). I can fit in the smallest of the four, but with the next size up (Yak) I have a little extra room in the bow. They make an inflatable cushion you can put there for a foot rest, but you could also have that be a gear bag. There is a standard inflatable back cushion, or an optional back strap (oddly, I found the cushion more comfortable even though I was sure the strap would be better - so did my buddy).

Next you can get a bow bag. A soft bag with a waterproof zipper that sits on top of the bow, strapped on. My Packlite came with a mesh one and it's so handy! I keep water, a sweater, my camera, etc. in it and you can reach it pretty easily (unless you get a longer boat, then I suppose maybe not). The larger bow bag is my preference because the zipper is more across the aft edge (like my Packlite bag) whereas on the smaller one it goes diagonally across the top.

Other options are for spray decks. These would of course be nice for real whitewater. Wind waves seem to pretty much stay out due to the high tubes (granted I have not had it out in huge winds). The cruiser deck is removable, but doesn't really give you a shaped cockpit; the whole deck just kind of diagonally closes around you. The whitewtaer deck uses some PVC tubing (inside, you don't really see it) to make an oval cockpit like you'd be used to on a whitewater boat. So you can have the deck on with the open cockpit, or add the sprayskirt. They make a removable whitewater deck now too, although there is some evidence left on the rim of the kayak when you have it off. It does add a bit of fiddliness to get the boat ready, but I liked the whitewater deck. it would be (obviously) good for whitewater but also for cold or rainy climates.

You can also add various thigh strap methods and things like that. For just normal paddling, the boat actually "fits" pretty nicely even without straps, but I am a fan of being more "locked in" on whitewater.

I don't have anyone to paddle whitewater with these days, so I don't see myself paddling serious whitewater. If I were, I'd definitely consider one of the whitewater-specific boats. I would think that for Class II, with maybe an occasional III thrown in, the Alpacka with spraydeck would work (maybe even open on Class II and under). There are some super keen paddlers (of all kinds) at Alpacka so they could give good advice.

Oh, and they also have these storage bags that fit *inside* the boat's tubes. There is a zipper that opens the tube and then a special shaped dry bag that goes in, you zip it back up and away you go. I wouldn't get these because I'm not planning any long expeditions, and you have to deflate the boat (not entirely but I mean you are opening the tube) to get into the bags. Not great for grabbing a sandwich or sweater. You can have this added later to an existing boat if you change your mind.

They inflate via a tiny little "pillowcase" of nylon. You pull it through the air to fill it and then push that air into the boat. The cool thing is you can bring this along vs. a big plastic pump. But of course you can also use other pumps, be they foot, electric, or whatever. But so many times I wish I could have topped off my Packlite enroute (the Aplacka also probably doesn't need topping off as much; the Packlite is fairly low volume so when it shrinks due to cold water it's starting to fold in half on you!).

So when I was there I mainly focused on the Scout (tiny boat, which I ruled out pretty quickly), and the various Alpacka models (i.e. which size would I want). I ruled out the largest one, which left the smaller three sizes. The smallest one just fit, the next one up gave me plenty of extra room but I could still reach the bow bag and foot cushion, and the third one just seemed like more boat than necessary (for my mostly day trips). Obviously that is totally subjective. I'm also not super tall.
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I DO appreciate a good paddle, and for that there is no downside (except money). A good paddle takes up no more room and is no harder to carry than a mediocre one. Bring it on!

My buddy already had a two-part Eddyline Mid-Swift (he had a hard, day touring kayak before the Alpacka) and that is a very nice paddle. Light as a feather, not a bit of slop in the attachment, easily adjustable (feathering angle), and it has these reflective "stripes" in the blades (which you can get in a number of colors) that really catch the sun and make you visible. It is not adjustable in length, but you can order various lengths. I think they also make four-part paddles. Of course the more joints the more weight, but I have a four part (cheapie) Packlite paddle (which is actually Packheavy) and that does allow it to store in the tire locker. They also make a few other blade styles than the Mid-Swift. Being an old-fashioned (I guess?) higher angle paddler I might like the Pro Swift.

Werner is also making some paddles that look like they might be nice for pack rafting, including a four-part length-adjustable packrafting specific paddle. IIRC it's not as light as the Mid-Swift. They of course make lots of other paddles too.

And I "air tried" a couple of Aqua-Bound paddles at the Alpacka store - they seemed like contenders too.
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BTW, my buddy also RV's and had a very nice day touring hard kayak that he was very fond of. It was his first boat, so he didn't have anything to compare to, but I paddled it and it was really fun. BUT, he found that he was not using it (or when we went paddling together he was groaning all the way back up to the car carrying it). And he actually had it mounted to the roof of his tow car so it was not that bad to get on and off the vehicle. Granted he's not a very dedicated paddler, so he was fairly easily discouraged. But anyway, he just kind of quit using it, or only wanted to do places that were right next to the parking lot.

Now he has the Alpacka and loves it. Granted, he could have left himself in the dust in his hard kayak. And he's not a lifelong paddler, so his opinions would come from a different place than yours, deppstein. But for him it's great as when it's put away it's in a compartment (vs. weathering away on the roof), and he no longer minds hiking up to that mountain lake, or doing the "shuttle" by walking a half mile with the boat. Also he likes how comfortable it is for "kicking back."

I definitely notice that it's not as purely good to paddle as a real canoe or kayak. I mean, it's like shuffling along on snowshoes vs. gliding on skiis. But for me right now it's something that I'll get out on the water in much more often, and go more "odd" places which I'm really enjoying. I guess kind of like how I enjoyed snowshoes cause you could just put them on and go anywhere (vs. organized ski trails). If it's early evening (summer) and I see a cool spot? Out comes the boat! Walk upstream 3/4 of a mile to put in and then paddle back? (winding river so I get more than 3/4 mile on the water) Sure!

So I guess for me it's not so much comparing this boat to a "real" boat because it's just not the same. It's more just looking at the experiences it gives me as a stand-alone thing. And... it's just kind of fun. Like paddling a big inflatable jelly bean It probably helped that I had a paddling hiatus so wasn't coming straight from some really great, fast, canoe or kayak. Don't step out of your Jensen and into an Alpacka

4 lbs? Incredible. Looks like I have some reading to do ...

Maybe in my case "kayak" isn't the correct word; container ship might be more accurate. Mine floats like a Caterpillar D11 and weighs as much. The svelte Sevylor Colorado is a claimed 41 lbs bone dry, so more like 45-50 in real life. Hey, but it can carry 470#!

We've logged a ton of hours in this thing, but I am in no way what I consider highly experienced in this activity; purely green circle recreational. Our use case for this boat is more of a picnic pleasure cruiser, and it does very nicely in that role. We're tandem, plus a 100 lb retriever (lethal set of claws) who likes to jump in and out of the boat at a frequency in tune with the local waterfowl population, so I needed something super tough and spacious. Plus with a loaded cooler and other crap, we're near capacity. This was the model recommended to me for load and puncture resistance. Lots of fun ... and lots of work. It bounces off rocks with glee, I can portage it solo, and it sets up in maybe 10-15 minutes with a kick pump. Looked at getting a 12v pump but never did.

We've used it all over the country and it definitely makes us smile. It was almost $500 in 2015. They've since come down in price. Rolled up and bagged, it's about 2.5 to 3 ft long and about 1.5 ft in diameter. If I roll it up tighter and more carefully, it fits into the locker under the water heater along with paddles (but those can go anywhere). Lifejackets go way up top in the rear locker against the shower. Inflation level is temperature sensitive so it can vary during the course of a typical excursion (it grows in direct sun and shrinks in colder water), but that hasn't really been a problem.

Before this "fishing kayak" I only had experience with aluminum canoes from 6 seasons of summer camp in Northern Wisconsin, later followed by a couple annual multi-week trips to the Boundary Waters. Coincidentally, David and I have both of those experiences in common, although floating airplanes were never involved in my trips. Rats!

Now that you guys have opened my eyes to this other category, I might have to get one. For the price of the Alpacka, I would need to demo it first. The AE Packlite would be easier to buy impulsively.

[Edited to add a pic. Don't laugh at my jacket. BTW, I really like the paddle holders for when I'm just kicking back and during a portage.]

Agreed on the Packlite. In fact I did buy it impulsively (Amazon one-day, delivered to me enroute) back in 2014. It works fine for me (150# or so) and a small dog (35#), but.... kinda barely. Mind you, that "barely" has taken me many fun miles, and I don't see myself leaving this boat behind - why should I when it is so small and light. But one can always add to the fleet

By the way, my first inflatable was a Sevylor Tahiti (the ubiquitous yellow large inflatable you see) back in the early 2000's. I bought that one impulsively too, at a swap meet ($25 with two paddles, granted they were heavy as lead). Took it along as a second tender on a boat trip, and it was fun in the "goof around" way, somewhat better than a pool toy but a real bear in the wind. Also heavy and bulky. But any boat that gets you out on the water is worth something, and it did that. Fifteen years later, when my aforementioned friend was first thinking of getting a boat (previous non-boater), we looked into renting kayaks for the day, then realized he could buy a Tahiti on Amazon for around the same price, so that's what we did. We took it out into a marsh of an evening, and he was hooked. Then it sat like a bulky lump in the back of his car where it only came out a couple of times. Mind you, he's lazy But that was enough to get him excited about buying a really nice hard day touring boat, and he passed it along to someone else who wanted to try it out and bought good (expensive) gear instead. But he did have a car to put the hard kayak on, so that made it easier.

Between the hard kayak and the Alpacka came an Innova inflatable. I thought it looked pretty good "on paper," and it was the least excessively beamy (almost normal!) and looked nicely kayak like. It was still around 20# and a bit bulky when packed (admittedly I was spoiled by the Packlite). But then even his fairly spiffy hard kayak was close to 50#. I never got a chance to try it because he went off for a year (I mean still in the US but just not camping anywhere near where I was), used it once, declared it uncomfortable, and sold it.

The website AirKayak has a lot of good review videos. It was their review of the Packlite that convinced me to try it out (although I didn't buy it from them because I was being so impulsive I had to use Amazon one-day and even then have it shipped to me enroute). There are a number of other good inflatables (many of which they review), that are probably more boat-like in a "bigger" way; but I decided that if I was going inflatable I wanted the super light, super small so that it would have that charm in return for giving up the sleek glide of a hard boat. That said, I'd love to try a number of the other ones. Can't have too many boats

BTW, I have had a dog in both the Packlite and the Alpacka. With the Packlite I "line" the front of the boat with a section of the old-fashioned type closed cell sleeping pad (or you could use a yoga mat). I didn't do that with the Alpacka (with my friend's permission!), and if you look at Alpacka's website just about all of the employees have dogs and take them out in the boats. Not that they're going to rival a Royalex canoe of course. There's a lot more room (and "height") in the Alpacka than the Packlite. The Packlite says it has a capacity of 225#, if I remember correctly, but that's probably pushing it, especially in cold water where it invariably deflates a little bit (you can't just overpressurize it to begin with because it will only take so much pressure). But I have take it over various rocks and branches and so far, so still alive.

So many boats. So little time! Loved the info in your post Blue.
Next time I head out to CO to visit our daughter (in Longmont), I'm going to take a side trip to Alpacka so that I can "sit behind the paddle" of some of their boats. I don't expect that we will be doing a whole lot of whitewater going forward, so a decent lake experience with my wife able to fly fish from up front along with the occasional not-more-than class II river is the sweet spot I will be seeking. From what I have read, that seems to be the Alpacka Explorer 42...but we shall see. As for paddles, I have used a standard Feather blade with my Mad River for years, and also have a beautiful bent shaft Whiskey Jack that I'll pull on if I am on a lake where I want to impress folks (ha ha). For the kayaks, I have a 2-piece Werner that I like, while my wife uses a decent Aqua Bound. I have no idea what I'll end up with when I transition to an Alpacka...the advice given in that regard is both useful and appreciated.

Scott--what camp did you go to in northern Wisconsin? I was both a camper and counselor for many years (61-74) at Nebagamon.
David

I tried to avoid water, otherwise, I would love to go on a boat. Apparently, my bones are probably made of lead, since I hardly can keep the very top of my head out of water even when I have taken in a full lung of air.

chin_k: But that is the beauty of boats - they keep you out of the water (if that's what you want). And lifejackets are a whole 'nother world nowadays compared to the kapok "horsecollars" of my youth. Meaning, if you go in, you won't really be "swimming' anyway. You'll be floating (even with your lead bones ). Not saying you should do it if you find it terrifying ('cause the point is to have fun), but maybe something to consider.

David: Your quiver of paddles sounds nice. I loved my Mitchell wooden paddles back in the day (the fiberglass paddles back then always felt dead to me), but my friend's fiberglass/carbon Eddyline Mid-Swift is amazing. It's like paddling with air! I bet the Werner and Aqua Bound are similar.

Stopping in at Alpacka is a good idea. Great folks, pretty small town, and you can test sit the boats and chat with them in a relaxed atmosphere. I drove over there from Valley of the Gods and it was a great day and drive.

Blue~Go wrote: January 22nd, 2019, 2:22 pmAnd lifejackets are a whole 'nother world nowadays compared to the kapok "horsecollars" of my youth.

I think that's what I have. It's ridiculous and uncomfortable so I rarely wear it, which I understand is not the best idea. I edited my post above to add a picture, and you can see it in the back.

Do you have a model you can recommend? Is it something I would need to try on for accurate fitment?

Hey David, I attended Deerhorn in Rhinelander starting at age 9, then in the latter couple years I did what is now a defunct program called "Explorer" which included extended wilderness excursions in WI and MN. Spoiled beyond belief. Founded in 1932.

Hey, nice lifejacket

There are so many good ways to go now. Everything from minimalistic inflatable "belts" (often used on standup paddleboards) to inflatable collar types (often used on bigger boats), to kayaking specific ones, to fishing vests with enough storage for all the gizmos.

Kayaking-specific vests often have a big "hole" in the back where there is no padding. That's so that in a traditional cockpit the padding doesn't get in the way of the backrest or backband. But that may not hold true for an inflatable - maybe it wouldn't even be desirable.

Trying on is always good, but I don't know that you'd HAVE to.

I'm ironically wearing a lifejacket I found along the shore (not a horsecollar but not fancy either). I should replace it with something better.

My buddy got a Kokotat MsFit. Yes, a women's model. Based on a tip from a friend who works at REI, he tried the women's ones on a well (the MsFit is one the friend said quite a few men also end up buying). He really liked it and bought it. Then he left it at home on a trip and had to find something within driving distance to replace it and ended up with a Stohlquist Ebb. I asked him to compare the two:

1) He likes all the pockets on the Kokotat (he likes to bring ALL the things along in the pockets). But other models probably have more or better pockets (he had to take what he could get in a smaller city).
2) He said the Stohlquist is more comfortable in the back area, but then added that he might be thinking of his previous boat with the hard backrest, so it might not actually apply to the inflatable.
3) The Kokotat is a brighter, more easy to see in the water color (which may or may not be a plus depending on whether you are looking more for stealth or safety). They do both have retro-reflective patches, but color is nice for daytime spotting (I used to roll my eyes at some of the sailing foulie makers, who would make the shoulders of the jackets navy blue - just try to find THAT in the water). But I imagine Stolquist has other brighter colors too.

For what it's worth, the "found" lifejacket I have is just a more "slabby" vest and I find the solid slab in the back to be fine (in the old hard kayaking days, I was more conscious of not having a PFD extend downward and mess with the sprayskirt or my lap - we used to roll up the bottom panel --- but they are mostly all higher cut that way nowadays).

Perhaps David has some good input on this topic.