Chinook RV

Okay, great. Thanks for the reminder. Actually, you sound a bit like me in summer mode (winter I tend to stay in one place for a week or two). Maybe with a bit more plugging in, but still, if you are not plugged in 80% of the time you still pretty much need a system that never needs to be plugged in (what I mean is, you can't go 80% of the time without a pretty solid boondocking system). We'll assume you will plug in for any Air-conditioning or huge loads.

Not trying to duplicate home makes things easier (and less expensive/involved), electrically speaking.

(And yes, I changed the couch/bed as Job #1 - I did NOT find the original comfortable.)

I remember now - you are going with a compressor refrigerator something like mine (right now I'm using a Waeco 50 liter/Danfoss BD35 compressor).

So how about if I tell you what I have, since its not *too* different, and at least gives a baseline that we know works for a given set of parameters (my batteries are 5 years old and load tested really well last summer).

Running the Waeco 24/7 I figure it uses between 25-50 amp hours per day, depending on how hot it is outside (when it's cool out, I don't heat the place overnight, so the fridge gets it easy). I run it as a fridge, set at about 30ºF (because I like cold drinks really cold, and I don't have ice). That makes it quite cold in the bottom, but "un-freezing" at the top. Like you, I'm not a meat-eater, so I don't have anything that will kill me in there if it gets a tiny bit warm. If times are slim (solar-wise), I will sometimes fiddle with it a bit (turn it colder after my batteries are charged up in the early afternoon; turn it up at night), but most of the time it all just goes. I don't spend lots of time looking at things (but I did in the beginning to get a baseline).

The only other thing I really use power for is LED lights (.5 amp each when on), and charging computer or phone, AA batteries, that sort of thing. I do a lot of things non-electric (coffee, etc.) just by habit. Dry hair with a towel

Oh, I don't use the stock furnace (that takes quite a bit of power). I use a Wave mostly. That could make a difference. At some point I'll probably put in a Propex furnace just because I do miss lazily flipping the thermostat from under the blankets in the morning

If I'm in shade a lot and/or not driving, my system can be a tiny bit small (I only have 200 watts of solar right now, and they are ground panels so I don't put them out for a one or two day stop always), so I supplement by, say, plugging in my computer and etc. when driving. This isn't all the time by any means, but I'm just saying I'm willing to help things along a bit from time to time (that's one of the not like a house parts). I came from boating where you're always managing your power/water/etc. so it seems normal to me. But again, I can go months without having to do any of that. If you are driving more, then you'll be fine.

What I would want solar for if I were you is when you do park, and also then you don't really have to be concerned with whether the alternator fully charges the batteries because the solar can easily top things off (if not always in cloudy places).

Right now for example, I'm having to watch things a bit. El Nino means it has been cloudy a LOT, plus of course sunlight is not as long. Still chugging along, but just not rolling in clover. If I had my 400 watts on the roof it would be less noticeable (or if driving).

Okay, with that preamble out of the way, I'll just lay out what I have. Not that you will have exactly the same, but you asked what I would get for me and our uses aren't THAT different. But next post as my dinner is ready

Okay, so here is what I have. Not that I'm saying my system is the best or even great (depending on usage) but it works and your uses don't sound so different from mine.

First of all, I pretty much removed all of the Chinook "big distribution" stuff. That is the brown box/breaker panels/ATS/big wires. Most of it was undersized for my purposes and either not fused or badly fused. The charger (or any one that would "drop in") wasn't adjustable enough for me.

I put the battery bank under the couch. It's 3, 125ah Lifeline AGM batteries, for 375 amp hours total. I would also consider two GPL-6CT 6 volt AGM's for a little bit less reserve (300ah).

I also built (in the same area) a distribution system with bus bars, switches, fuses that are fairly robust and to a reasonably safe standard (loosely modeled after ABYC boat standards). This is what the new charger, solar controller, combiner, and DC fuse panel connect to (in various ways). I used mostly Blue Sea stuff (switches, fuse blocks, bus bars), Ancor wire, FTZ lugs and crimps.

For the combiner wire I have a 1/0 positive wire from the start battery positive to the house bank main Class T fuse (so that fuse covers it at the house bank end). On the start battery I have a MRBF for that wire. I upgraded the two negative "leads" that go from each battery bank to the frame to complete the circle on that. I chose to use a manual switch for that, but could also have used a Blue Sea 7622. I just don't use it THAT often, and I like the control. Since it's not my principle method of charging, and since the alternator seems to put out between 13.6 and 14.2 volts, I don't condition it at all. I did end up using it this summer more than I ever had before and it was easily able to get my bank up to 85-90% charged (I know this because as soon as I would set up my solar panels they would go right into absorption phase, which starts at around 85%). So on balance I think I'd do the same again.

Solar controller: I joke that it's like dating - there is no perfect one. It's annoying, since, unlike people, there *could* be one solar controller that has it all, but there isn't AFAIK. So you have to pick your advantages and your poisons. Just to lightly touch on it:

1) Morningstar (I have one of these).
- Great history, great warranty, good MPPT performance, meter is good. Just a solid product. Area where wires go in is good. Has temp comp and larger ones have voltage sense. Good heat sink, easy mounting, no fans. Programming on smaller ones (like mine a 15 amp MPPT) is infuriatingly (for me) only via an annoying Windows program. End of absorption is very adjustable, but not as "dialed in" as end amps would be. The new (came out a year or two ago) larger controllers (25 amp and 40 amp) have a GREAT display that you can use to program as well (so nice) but it's not remote display (boo) (you can still use the basic remote display that I use). They take as much voltage as we would want (75 volts or more depending on model).

2) Blue Sky (have set them up for friends)
Great coordination between solar controllers if you use more than one, end amps which is GREAT for lead-acid batteries - the definitive way to have batteries fully charged. The display I find slightly annoying for having to scroll for what I want to see, but you can fully program the controllers with it. OTOH, where you attach the wires on the smaller units is super cramped and seems a tiny bit dodgy to me, and on the larger ones you can use large wires but I'm still not fond of the connection type. Also they are somewhat limited on voltage (you can squeak by putting two panels in series with the right panels, and if you don't charge on mornings below zero). The display is expensive because it is a shunt based meter as well (which is fine as long as you don't want a different shunt based meter and then you pay twice) (but this is what allows it to use end amps). They have remote temp comp but not voltage sense.

3) Midnite Solar (Don't have, but did order one and look at it before returning it).
I have a hard time getting past the styling, and the smaller units don't (or didn't) have a remote display (larger ones are too large, tare load, fans, etc.). They only accept small wires really close together on the smaller units. I have a feeling the controllers are fine, but those things cut it out for me.

4) Victron (I have one but not in my Chinook).
Oh so slick (I have one in my car). Super cool interface on your phone, works well with their other super slick products, very forward looking cool company. But I would not choose one anymore for lead-acid batteries. First of all they have never had remote temp comp (now you can get it by adding another product but come on that's a day late and a dollar short) and second of all I have found their "algorithm" (which decides how long to absorb) doesn't really get my batteries all the way charged. It stops too soon from what I have seen. No good way to adjust that that I've found. Small annoying wire attachment area. Now for lithium batteries (which is a focus of theirs to be fair) you don't need temp comp OR absorb times to speak of, so then yes. Even so, they aaare so slick. And blue.

5) Outback (have not tried)
Very nice units with great features but mostly they are large, use fans, etc. I don't see them as being great for our setups, as nice as they are (have not used one for this reason).

6) Xantrex
Have not tried.

So to summarize what do I look for:

1) MPPT
2) Good meter
3) Good support
4) Secure, confidence-inspiring way to attach wires, the larger the better
5) Remote temp comp (for lead-acid batteries)
6) Custom settings
7) Good heat sinkage
8) Ability to run higher voltage panels if desired
9) Non Windows way to do settings, if possible
10) Voltage sense is a plus but not a deal breaker

So what would I choose if I were you? Remind me the size solar array you are considering and tell me how much Windows annoys you and how much super slick phone apps thrill you

Shore charger: I have a ProMariner ProCharge Ultra 60 amp. I don't love it or hate it. It is fully programmable (although not idea for lithium but then few are and you don't have those anyway). The instructions are cringe-worthily ugly, as is the design, but I don't look at it very often, and it has the goods inside (note that you cannot program it from the remote). Other brands I would consider would be Blue Sea, Victron, etc. I wouldn't bother with a 60 amp unit if I were to do it again - I'd probably go 20-40 amps.

For monitoring I have the RM-1 meter that goes with my Morningstar 15 amp MPPT controller, a Balmar Smart Gauge, and a Victron BMV shunt based meter. I like info and they all do something a little bit different and complementary.

I won't go into wire sizes on my main distribution because it all depends on the amps you are running through it plus the length of the run.

What did I keep from the Chinook system? Pretty much all the small load wires (that run around the walls), although I "gained" two nice large ones by re-purposing the 8AWG that ran along the driver's side up to the batteries and the 8AWG that went over to the other side for the fridge. There were also two unused 12 AWG (if I remember the size correctly) that went up the two sides to the entertainment area that were not hooked up (presumably for some type of surround sound option). These all go to a Blue Sea 12 position blade fuse block. I also have a few blade fuses on my main load bus that I use for a few added things (wire for the BMV, power to my warning lights for my manual combiner, power for the fridge, an added 12 volt socket). I used a Blue Sea Safety Hub (150 model I think) for my main load bus.

I have two 100 watt solar panels set up as ground panels that I run in series on a 35' 8AWG wire (with an additional ~35' 10 AWG extension if necessary - that makes for more voltage drop but at that point it's that or nothing or I wouldn't be using the extension at all. Also with the panels in series I have plenty of voltage to work with). I plan to put 400 watts on the roof which means I can lazily leave the ground panels un-deployed much of the time (but I have made it just fine with only the 200 watts for five years - however being ground panels they are tilted and aimed better than roof panels would be - hence why more on the roof when I go roof panels). I am STILL waffling about what controller to use when I add those! Where is my perfect controller!?

I also kept the Chinook shore cord (although if I used shorepower more than once in a blue moon I'd change to a Smart Plug). For the AC panel basically the same as your Blue Sea one but with two sources so I could keep the generator if I wanted to (not that I have ever used it!). But I only needed four circuits anyway so no loss with that 8 position panel (two double pole breakers plus four single poles for loads). The manual select eliminates the need for an Automatic Transfer Switch.

A couple of years ago I thought about "why am I even keeping the generator?!" I had used a friend's generator for a couple of tasks and thought I might want to do them with mine. But we're literally talking about five times a year for ten minutes so that just seemed silly to haul around an entire gas engine for. So I came up with a plan, tested it out on buddy's rig (because he had all the components already there plus the meters to watch things) and it has worked great. What that is is that I put in a 1500 watt modified sine wave inverter. I only use it for like three things, and then run the engine (which pretty much makes it a wash). Note that I wouldn't do that on a very regular basis or for long, as engines are not meant to be idled as generators.

a) Heat gun for electrical work (have never found anything non-electric that really works well).
b) Multimaster or Router
c) Vacuum while using above tools (and for the carpet that I will be gleefully ripping out at some point so that will no longer be needed).

If it weren't for the above three I wouldn't even have it. But for those things it works beautifully (and was inexpensive to add). The only other uses I have for an inverter are covered with a 75 watt plug-into-cigarette-socket version. That is my toothbrush charger and an emergency backup 120 volt computer charge cord (normally I use 12 volt cord for that). Everything else I have is 12 volt (including charger for AA and AAA batteries, and cordless tool charger).

Now I've probably forgotten a bunch of things.

Again, not to say that what I have is perfect (some of it is still a work in progress), or that it suits anyone but me. There is no one best way. But your use case sounded close enough to mine that I figured it might be helpful. I would say the 225 amp hours of house bank might be a bit slim IF you were going to park for longer periods of time or stick in cloudy/rainy places but that doesn't sound like the case.

BG

PS: If you are going to do the big wire work yourself, I would highly recommend biting the bullet for the "big" FTZ Correct Crimp tool (non-ratcheting is fine), plus FTZ lugs, and dual wall heat shrink (plus a good small crimper and FTZ or other good adhesive heat shrink small crimps for 10AWG and smaller).

You can get someone like Genuine Dealz to make what you specify (and they do a great job), BUT to my mind nothing beats being able to make them as you go, AND with the big wires, being able to face the lugs the exact way you want them can really make a difference.

PS: This is just a small detail but it came to mind: When you are planning your distribution of the load center circuits, keep in mind that the compressor based refrigerators REALLY WANT clean power with no voltage drop. This means a nice large wire, and not cramming it on a circuit with a bunch of other loads that could start up with a surge, etc. (They will of course tell you to run it right to the battery posts, but that's not necessary as long as you understand why they say that - if you listened to every company that said that you'd have a hundred wires on your battery posts )

I also cut the cigarette plug off the DC power cord and hard wire mine (with ring terminals and larger wire since they only use 12AWG on those cords) (I buy a second cord so I can still make it portable if desired). The electronic compressor controller is what will not like messy power, and they are like $350. Just something to plan while you are at it.

Here are a few semi-ratty photos of parts of my system (in various stages of finish mostly taken years ago). Yeah, it's not much, but it's something.

First is the way I handled the positive post of the start battery. Chinook had two wires here (plus Ford's two), and they were literally pulling off the post. Also none were fused. I eliminated one (the generator start wire, which I moved to the house bank), and put ring terminals on the two Ford wires (which you can't see under the red cover). Then I added an MRBF for the combiner wire (the little red "hat" on the 200 amp fuse). You could also use something like military terminals.

[Forgot to mention that what I used to do this - which is under the big red cover - was use marine post adapter that goes onto an automotive post. So it has an automotive clamp and then gives you a machine-screw type stud to put ring terminals, MRBF, and etc. on instead of automotive clamps. You do have to watch the height/leverage factor. That's why I cut the Ford "schnozzle" wire that was two wires with a built-on automotive clamp -- so that I could instead make it ring terminal(s) in order to play nicely with all the other terminals vs. the way Chinook had them all mushed on there and not fused]

You can see the combiner wire going off to the right just below the white hood cowling in the woven loom (not that yours will take this same path; my start battery is on the passenger side and the house bank is on the driver's side).

Then here is the main distribution area which is under my couch with the batteries. I didn't have all the cushion clamps on yet (which secure the wires) in this photo, and plus, geez, I cut everything off (photo taken in 2015). What you can see is the main house bank positive coming in from the left via a Class T fuse, then to my main battery switch (red), thence to the Blue Sea Safety hub (main bus bar plus some large fuses plus some blade fuses all in one). The combiner wire comes in via the black switch (which should really be moved so I can reach it from the driver's seat). The small wires on the black switch are for two warning lights I have - a solid green at the dash when combined and a flashing red in the living room also when combined. This is the same combiner wire that is fused at the start battery with the MRBF "red hat."

In subsequent setups (on different projects) I have made more use of link bars (both Blue Sea plus ones I made with copper bar stock) which can be useful in cramped spaces vs. tiny jumpers with giant wires. If/when I re-do this I would make some changes to the organization (namely separate charge bus), but it's not awful.

This was a temporary setup of my main DC panel (because re-doing kitchen cabinets). It shows the blade fuse block vs. a breaker panel (12 positions), which I still use (even though the breaker panels are very nice!). You can see some of the carpet was going bye-bye in this photo (I rebuilt the shore cord box and also removed the carpet from it and painted the fiberglass floor with marine paint).


And here is something I wanted to mention. So Chinook (along with every other RV maker I have seen) used solid AC wiring (vs. stranded which one should use in a moving vehicle). So, you can't crimp a ring terminal onto solid wire, and you need ring terminals to hook up to the Blue Sea AC panel. I hemmed and hawed about how to do this for quite a while (even considered re-doing all the AC wiring changing it to stranded). Eventually I settled on using a junction box and special wire nuts (I KNOW!) that are meant for both solid and stranded wire. I then converted each wire from solid to stranded inside the box, so then had stranded to go to the Blue Sea panel with. Being inside the box and strain relieved on the way in to and out of the box, I think the risk of them coming undone is very minimal. Not a perfect world... (wire nuts! ) This photo shows the box in progress, and the shore charger which is mounted to the wall that divides the sink from the shower (this is under the sink in a pretty inaccessible-but-previously-wasted space, but I can get to it by removing drawers and I don't need access often. There is plenty of cooling air. The maple plywood box beneath it is the shore cord box on my era Chinook (I re-made the MDF box but essentially the same otherwise).

Converting from solid to stranded before you go into your Blue Sea AC breaker panel is something you will want to account for unless you re-wire all the AC wiring completely.

Wow. What a lot of information. I will be reading and digesting this for a couple of hours.
Thanks for your input.

Maybe too much, plus "wall of text"

If it's any consolation I'm wading through similar "walls" in researching a lithium system (plus all the controls) for a different project. It can be a bit overwhelming. Sometimes I want to kick and scream and "Can't someone just tell me the One Right Answer!?"

Definitely not too much info. After a day at work I need to clear my mind (and cook dinner) and then focus. You are a great source of info and I want to make sure to understand all of it.

I am going to start with what I think is the least complicated area, Shore Power.
The fact that the Blue Sea panel only accepts stranded wire is something that escaped me. The solid vs stranded is a bit of a pain. Don't see replacing the 110 wire as it won't be used much hopefully (plus I bet changing the wires to the Air Con would be a challenge). Your solution seems to be a good one.
How about using a residential type electrical box (e.g. Square D) that uses solid wire and putting some switches after the individual breakers?
Are there any fuse blocks that take both solid and stranded wire?

Battery charging/combiner.
If I use the Blue Sea 7622 between the start battery and the leisure battery, where would you place any battery disconnects?
And where would you pull the 12 volt power for accessories?
If I understand this is used for the bulk of the charging and you finish it off either with solar or plug in shore power.

Solar charging.
I like what I have just read about the Morningstar Sunsaver TrakStar 15amp........, and the RM-1 meter. I also have on my bench a TriMetric battery monitor. Unless there is a reason not to I will use it as well.
My goal on the roof is to install as much as is both economical and ecstatically acceptable. I really like the physical size of the Zamp 90 watt panel (58.3 x 13.5) but it is stupid expensive. I need to spend some time on a ladder measuring open area that is not hanging over the side.
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The question of placement of the 7622 is a bit of an issue.
1. If I put it near the old home of the brown box it makes for a long run to the leisure batteries in the old generator box.
2. If I put it near the leisure batteries (generator box) it makes for a longer run from the start battery.
Any big advantage or disadvantage to either place?
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Still researching a shore power charger and inverter.
On the inverter I assume it would be between the start battery and the 7622, and the engine would need to be running in order for it to put out anything worthwhile.