Solar

Split from General / Technical for discussion of anything electrical, electronic... 12v, Inverter, Satellite, Headlights, flashlights etc.
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kdarling
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Joined: October 20th, 2015, 6:57 am
Location: Northern NJ

Re: Solar

Post by kdarling »

Handy Bob's article is from 2011. That's like what, a half century in Internet / electronic years? ;)

Seriously though, read these as well...

Simple explanation:
https://www.solar-electric.com/mppt-sol ... llers.html

Much more detailed:
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/do ... r-MPPT.pdf

Comparison test in an open meadow:
http://www.schams-solar.de/download/DES ... pt-pwm.pdf

Comparison test on a boat:
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/sola ... er_testing

A lot of people will bend over backwards to promote using a good wire gauge in order to prevent a relatively small voltage drop, yet then dismiss a possible 10-30% converter power difference as not worth worrying over. In reality, I think they're both worth handling the best way we can.
1994 Concourse dinette, Ford 7.5L (460 V8)
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Blue~Go
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Location: 1999 Concourse

Re: Solar

Post by Blue~Go »

kdarling wrote: A lot of people will bend over backwards to promote using a good wire gauge in order to prevent a relatively small voltage drop, yet then dismiss a possible 10-30% converter power difference as not worth worrying over. In reality, I think they're both worth handling the best way we can.
I agree completely. Solar power is hard to get (even our modern day "cheap" panels are relatively weak in the grand scheme of things, and there is only so much sunlight and only so much space on the roof). So once I get it, I don't want to give any of it up to "leaky buckets and hoses" along the way to the batteries. Hence, I went with a good (customizable/temp compensated) MPPT controller and a combination of larger wires and higher voltage (which means that smaller wires can do the same job as larger wires) to plug the potential holes in my buckets and hoses. It has been well worth it for me.
1999 Concourse
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caconcourse
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Re: Solar

Post by caconcourse »

HoosierB wrote:I really like this forum when it comes to varied opinions and helpful advice. Much appreciated.

To allow time to digest info and educate myself (and maintain some sanity), I decided to approach my upgrade in steps:
• maintain existing wiring and LVD for now
• do the PD4645 retrofit
• replace roof solar panel with one Renogy Eclipse 100w
• replace/controller charger with something like a Sunforce 60023 30amp (temporary and inexpensive, but more efficient than existing with no modifications for fit)

Initially this is just a "plug'n play" stage. Eventually getting to my goal of a 200w system would be adding the additional Renogy 100w panel, appropriate wiring, charger/controller, monitor, etc.
This upgrade approach is very similar to what I installed on my 2001 Concourse. The advantage is no rewiring with much improved (over stock) plug and play replacement components. A better PWM controller is the Coleman version of the Sunforce, which includes a digital voltage and amperage display for about $5 more:

https://www.amazon.com/Sunforce-68032-C ... B004RCX91E

I added a second 50W Siemens panel from another owner and a third 50W flat panel on top of the air conditioner for a total of 150W. I think you could easily mount two Renogy 100W panels where the stock panels are and add the 50W flat panel on top of the AC for an easy upgrade to 250W. It's not optimal but it's 5 times the power of the original system, with safe three-stage charging, and it doesn't use any valuable roof real estate.

I am very content with our 150W and PWM system, and I leave the Chinook 12V system on 24/7 in the driveway for months on end, with no battery issues. I did replace the inline fuse with a 20Amp (vs 7.5A) to handle the additional capacity. In real life I see about 2-3 Amps typical daily charging, and have never seen more than 8 or 9 amps when deep charging on a sunny day. The existing wiring can handle this load with no problems other than a little efficiency loss when the system is working at its best. We tend to look for hookups just for convenience (easy morning coffee and propane-free refrigerator use and Air Conditioning in extreme heat) but have no trouble surviving a few nights in parking lots if we have to. We tend to drive a lot, and not spend much time in one place, but we run the refrigerator in DC mode while driving, so ironically, our biggest battery drain is while we are parked somewhere during a driving day and leave the refrigerator on. We try to get hookups every three or four days anyways, for dumping and easy coffee, and it gives us a chance to recharge everything.

The most important reason for upgrading the Magnatek charger and stock solar charger is the improvement in efficiency and protection from overcharging, which in particular boils out battery fluid pretty rapidly. I haven't needed to add additional fluid in the two years since I replaced the charge controllers. In contrast, all the battery cells were low after one week of shore power connection with the original Magnatek 7300 charger.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that your approach is perfectly rational and has worked well for us so well that further improvements were not needed for our lifestyle.

Clay

Here is a link to my blog, which describes our power upgrades in more detail, with pictures:

http://clayrushing.com/2017/01/21/chino ... -upgrades/
Last edited by caconcourse on March 26th, 2017, 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Clay
2001 Concourse
Santa Barbara, CA
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HoosierB
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Location: South Bend, Indiana

Re: Solar

Post by HoosierB »

Clay... your site was my inspiration! Didn't know it was you. I have made some of the other mods you wrote about as well.
Our travel style is similar to yours (more touring and post to post), even the same year Concourse, so it seemed like a good comparison.

You also installed a Progressive Dynamics 4645. Did you ever feel the need to go with heavier gauge wire to the LVD?
"Wanda" – '01 Chinook Concourse XL V10
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caconcourse
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Re: Solar

Post by caconcourse »

HoosierB wrote:You also installed a Progressive Dynamics 4645. Did you ever feel the need to go with heavier gauge wire to the LVD?
The short answer is no, I never felt the need.

The only time maximum current is needed is when the batteries need bulk charging (in other words, highly depleted). We're usually just topping off. If you are charging through shore power, the efficiency may be reduced, but you generally have overnight to recharge, so it doesn't have to be fast. The only other need is when you need to use the generator to bulk charge, which we have never had to do. The only times we have used the generator were to run the air conditioning when dry camping in extreme heat (or once when we were waiting for a flat tire repair in 100 degrees).
Clay
2001 Concourse
Santa Barbara, CA
A Rooney
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Re: Solar

Post by A Rooney »

I can't remember the last time I plugged in ( actually last June) the point is that mostly my Prgressive Dynamics converter,is online only when Like recently my electrical use overtakes my solar recharge capacity,and I am compelled to run the generator.Its normal algorithm programming puts it at 13,6 volts topping off a battery....and I would have over rided the program with the wizard to get the green light to the 14.1 stage (had I remembered to) I guess I am buying into the HandyBob take that higher voltages tend to force more amps in as the batteries upper levels (that's where I live,I tend to think of my solar recharge capacity as my electrical "income" and adjust my use (by a good meter) with the goal of trying to keep my batteries healthy by getting them back to 100% capacity at sundown each day or so.Btw I am sure there are a plethora of good Solar blogs besides Bobs (which has been updated since 2011) I have Not spent the time to investigate the mppt advantage over pwm on small 150 watt systems like my own (small little span of attention) but my system works fine for my needs like I recently posted (beyond my expectation even) So I also like to Read others posts on their setup and what works for them..,,We don't all have the same income/means/use pattern and there isn't one right course when it comes to Electrical Systems.....The real question is not Kits?should I remove my Lvd?,separator?,mppt or Pwm? Fla or agm? but rather since you have upgraded Has the lvd sounded?have you had to replace batteries before their expected lifespan?do you get thru a day with your power needs on average equaling your recharge capacity.If so my point is there is room for discussion but not as the kids in the classroom say",,,,,,,"..Your System works for you....and your Chinook life is Good....Rooney 2001 Premier
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Blue~Go
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Location: 1999 Concourse

Re: Solar

Post by Blue~Go »

A Rooney wrote: I guess I am buying into the HandyBob take that higher voltages tend to force more amps in as the batteries upper levels (that's where I live,
Just to be clear, that's the absorption stage of charging on a lead-acid battery, which is generally from 85% full to 100% full. It's not just a Bob theory, but is just how lead-acid batteries accept charge. I called it the "eye of the needle" stage. Most batteries at that point want around 14.4 volts, and this stage is voltage limited when you have it set up on a smart charger. What that means is that the charger (which could be a shore charger, solar controller, etc.) will hold the voltage at 14.4 (or whatever the equivalent voltage is if the batteries are above or below 77º F) and the amps going in will slowly (oh, so agonizingly), slowly taper until the batteries are fully charged, at which point the charger will go into the float stage. This absorption stage can take hours, which is why it's a good time to use solar vs. generator, but also why on shorter days or partially cloudy days one may spend most of the day absorbing (on solar).

That's one of the attractions of lithium batteries. No absorb stage! So it's just bulk charge, bulk charge, bulk charge all the time unless/until they are full. Imagine the effectiveness of the same amount of solar if there was no hours-long absorption stage. And then just to make them more tempting, they don't even care about getting to 100% charged, AND can be discharged to 20% SOC.

So a person's 200#, 300 amp-hour battery bank just became a 75#, 150 amp-hour battery bank, and the four-five hours a day (or whatever) that was formerly spent in absorb putting in a tiny number of amps can now be full speed charging (yet without caring if they get to 100%). They are still a bit "early adopter," and of course they have some downsides, but their future looks bright. But still not for everyone (can't charge them below freezing, they don't tolerate heat well, they die completely if certain things are done to them, etc.).

You make a good point in that a good system is one that works well for the batteries and for the Chinook owner. Hence why use-case scenario is key, along with the mindset of the user. My 200 watts, set up to be as efficient as I can reasonably make it, is an absolute joy for me and makes my life a lot more comfortable than without it. But someone who wanted to run a microwave, air-conditioner, or big inverter on a regular basis would have a woefully inadequate system if they copied my setup.
1999 Concourse
shinobi
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Joined: July 29th, 2024, 6:11 pm

Re: Solar

Post by shinobi »

Chinookers wrote: June 12th, 2015, 1:35 am Here's a link to show what I did ... http://chinookers.blogspot.com/2014/07/ ... ade_7.html

Very happy with the result
Hello, we just purchased a 2002 Concourse with only 34000 miles, doing many updates and would love to have an invite to ou blog.
Thanks,
Mark & Dorothy
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