3 electrical systems

[Blue~Go]

I am going to start with what I think is the least complicated area, Shore Power.
The fact that the Blue Sea panel only accepts stranded wire is something that escaped me.

Don't you love the little gotchas? I agree on not replacing it all. On my buddy's other-brand Class C we did replace almost all of it, but it was fairly easy (except the generator wire which ran between the flooring layers - so we made a similar junction box for just that one wire).

On my Chinook, I deemed it impractical, and like you, shore power isn't my main focus. That said, I'm basically comfortable with the way it turned out (we just won't talk about wire nuts again, thankyouverymuch).

How about using a residential type electrical box (e.g. Square D) that uses solid wire and putting some switches after the individual breakers?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here, but on the surface it sounds like just more joints and bulk and things to go wrong? Or am I not picturing it correctly?

Are there any fuse blocks that take both solid and stranded wire?

None that I found, and I looked and looked at various things (literally, this was on my mind for weeks!). I found all kinds of possible ways, as I was determined not to use the "hack" of wire nuts. But in the end, I decided that "hack" was basically as good or better than any of the other solutions I found. I did look for good quality wire nuts that said they accepted both solid and stranded wire, and made sure they were the right size. I made sure they "caught" properly and made a good connection. Also I used strain relief on both the "in" and "out" holes of the junction box, so those wires should not be moving (aside from some slight vibration). I really don't know if there is a better way - possibly there is as working with solid AC wire is not my area of expertise (you just wouldn't see it on a boat at all).

Oh, also of course any new wire I put was all stranded, such as the AC wire from the new shore charger to the breaker panel.

[Blue~Go]

Battery charging/combiner.
If I use the Blue Sea 7622 between the start battery and the leisure battery, where would you place any battery disconnects?

I basically have my system set up the same as I would have for the 7622 (I bought one but then decided to go with the manual switch instead - but nothing against them as I have used them on other projects). So the black switch in my photo sort of "is" the 7622. The 7622 does have a manual lockout switch right on the main body, so I don't think you would need an additional manual switch on that line (you can double check that as the version I used was a smaller one with no manual lockout - on another project).

Electrically, the 7622 is the same anywhere along that large-cable positive line from the start to the house battery. If it can be inside and away from heat, so much the better. Obviously think about where you can reach the manual lockout switch. I think there may be some indicator lights on the body of it. The separate rocker switch just uses small wires (you can use that near or on the dash for jump starting).

The only thing different about the 7622 from my switch (in essence) is that it is an automatic relay. It is bi-directional (some similar switches are uni-directional). So essentially, the relay (7622 is a relay) starts in the open (no current flows) position. If either side "shows" above 13.6 volts (if I remember that figure correctly) then it basically says, "hey, someone is charging, let's share the wealth!" and closes the relay (current flows from the charging side to the other side). If the charging stops (indicated by both sides going below (I think it is) 12.6 volts or so, then the relay opens (current does not flow). The jump starting is manual (rocker switch you can place on or near dash), but I like that as I want to know for sure if or when my starting battery needs help.

Blue Sea also has really good product documentation plus you can call and talk to real tech people without having to jump through a bunch of hoops. I had a failure of a smaller version of the 7622 (a real fluke from what I can tell) and they shipped me out a new one "overnight" with almost no questions asked, and did not make me wait until the "bad" one arrived back at their place (I hate it when places do that when you are in need of the new one NOW).

And where would you pull the 12 volt power for accessories?

I'm not sure what that (accessories) means? Can you clarify?

If I understand this is used for the bulk of the charging and you finish it off either with solar or plug in shore power.

Yes, that is how I do it. Solar for everything most of the time, and combiner when I need it topped off by solar (with roof panels that would be really rare, even when driving -- which is mostly when I don't have solar now since I only have the ground setup now). Since the alternator puts out between about 13.6 volts and about 14.1 volts or so, it just happens to work fine for that - or at least I'm comfortable with it. Granted it it not temperature compensated but then bulk doesn't really need to be, within reasonable limits. I only combine when I need to, which up until this summer was hardly ever. This summer I happened to do some traveling wherein I was moving every one or two days or so, and I was not bothering to put out my ground panels some of those times (I was doing the "running from smoky fires" hopscotch). So I used it a lot, and would often be down around 60-65% SOC or so when I started driving. So it got a true workout. When I would subsequently stop and put my panels out, they would pretty much go right into absorb, so I think it was good. AGM's don't like PSOC (partial states of charge - in other words they want to get to 100% as often as possible), but I made sure not to use only the alternator charging for days and days on end with no solar to top up.

I did consider a Sterling B2B charger, but for me it doesn't seem necessary (even as much as I like "good" charging). And I didn't want to put any extra strain on the alternator (which I think the B2B does to some extent). As mentioned, I typically didn't use the combiner at night (this may not even be real and I don't know how much the headlights tax the alternator, but it was easy to do so that's how I worked it - I don't drive a whole lot at night with the Chinook anyway).

Nothing against a real/good B2B charger though. Better charging (as long as it actually is better) is nearly always a great thing. But in bulk I feel okay with what I have for my use case.

[Blue~Go]

Solar charging.
I like what I have just read about the Morningstar Sunsaver TrakStar 15amp........, and the RM-1 meter. I also have on my bench a TriMetric battery monitor. Unless there is a reason not to I will use it as well.

Do you mean the Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT 15 amp? (Or is there another one - some of their names kind of overlap in my mind.)

I like the RM-1 meter. It only shows one "thing" at a time, but they are arranged such that the two I use most often are one button press apart. (This is one thing that bugged me on the Blue Sky one -- it showed like three or four things at once on the screen, which is great, but as it turned out the things I usually wanted to see were STILL a menu or two apart.)

You probably won't use this much, but it's kind of fun: On the RM-1 you will be able to see how much your remote temperature compensation is doing for you vs. if you were using the built in non-remote one. For me with solar most of my charging is in the earlier part of the day (after that I'm typically charged up fully), and even with my batteries inside under the couch, AND the solar controller mounted right to the side of the battery box (on the outside of it), I will usually see the controller temperature (which is the temperature used when there is not a remote temp sensor) quite a bit warmer than the batteries via the remote sensor. Of course the lead in the batteries is massive, and I don't keep the Chinook as warm overnight as a house, so the batteries are almost always quite a bit colder. Glad I have the remote temp comp. It's especially obvious how much difference it makes on a winter morning. (Batteries are rarely warmer than the controller because I'm not usually charging when they are retaining heat from the "day.")

BTW, with my ground panels I can hit the 15 amp max on a day with good sun and 200 watts of panels. BUT, that is with them aimed and angled precisely. You wouldn't see that much from flat panels on the roof, so you could easily go with more watts if desired and not lose much (doesn't hurt this controller to overpanel, and of course you are only "losing" that extra power on the very best days, which are few and far between with flat panels). I did an experiment with two 135 watt panels flat on the ground (so 270 watts total) and my Sunsaver 15 and I was able to max it out at 15 amps, JUST. But that was in full sun in mid-July when it is at the perfect angle. And even then it was only right at mid-day.

Note that to program the Sunsaver you need Windows (urgh) or a simulator on Mac. Also if you don't have a serial port (hee) you need an adapter. I carry these things with me and they are small and easy to store; just so you have them.

Also, there is a little "jumper" you can put in and take out of the Sunsaver. This basically allows you to have two sets of settings. So I have a "fat" and a "lean" that I can alternate between without having to re-program (I don't have Windows so it's a bit of a pain).

I think the Trimetric is a shunt based coulomb counter type meter, right? If so it should be fine. I have not used that brand for two reasons. One is they just aren't really used on boats so I had never had one on my "menu" of options (I've used Xantrex back in the day and Victron now). And two is I can't quite get over how busy they look. But that's just aesthetics - as long as it works. Be aware that with shunt based meters there are things you want to set up so they work correctly. Size of battery bank, Peukert factor, manually zero it to start, etc. (you'll want to look at your specific instructions). Also, you will want to adjust the size of the battery bank as it gets older and loses capacity, in order to keep it as accurate as possible (so in a couple of years you remove some amp hours from the total size, etc.)

My goal on the roof is to install as much as is both economical and ecstatically acceptable. I really like the physical size of the Zamp 90 watt panel (58.3 x 13.5) but it is stupid expensive. I need to spend some time on a ladder measuring open area that is not hanging over the side.

I probably spent more time agonizing over this than the wire nuts! I measured, I made mock ups, I shopped. Then I did it again. And again.

The Zamp panels weren't available when I was first shopping, but there was the somewhat similar Solarland SLP-070. That panel is at least not super expensive. It's polycrystalline so a bit cheaper (around $225 last I checked). BUT, it just annoyed me to only be able to fit three (210 watts only, and most of my roof gone). And three is awkward if you want to do series pairs. So I just couldn't QUITE make myself do that. But I didn't want giant panels hanging way over my nice sleek Chinook. And I didn't want my ladder access blocked. And I want to be able to put the Air-con back if I decide to (and I have a skylight there now, so didn't want to block that). And I like to be able to get onto the overcab to lean over and clean the front of the overcab. And on and on

I finally settled on the Renogy "Compact" panels. I alllllmost went for the Eclipse panels (which are a really nice high quality panel), but they are black (meh, my brackets are silver) and the Compact is over an inch narrower than the Eclipse (main factor!). Specifically, 19.7" wide. That is the narrowest "normal" sized panel I have found (it's a 100 watt panel). It's around 2" longer than the Eclipse, at around 42.5" long, but that's fine. It is also only 16 volts (most are around 17.5). But I am going to do series pairs, so that's just peachy. I can fit 400 watts all within my parameters. And four is a nice, even number.

They will hang over the top tier slightly (around 1.7") but I think I can live with that for function over form (I have seen some hanging over like 4-5"). They don't hang over the actual Chinook; just the top tier.

If I only wanted 160 watts, I'd likely bite the bullet for the Zamps, or for 140 watts, the SLP-070's. (And just do two panels.)
.

The question of placement of the 7622 is a bit of an issue.
1. If I put it near the old home of the brown box it makes for a long run to the leisure batteries in the old generator box.
2. If I put it near the leisure batteries (generator box) it makes for a longer run from the start battery.
Any big advantage or disadvantage to either place?

It makes no difference whatsoever. Since the large positive cable is just being interrupted by the 7622, it can be at one end, the other end, the middle, or wherever. The main bad point is just the length of the run (vs. the large amps), not where the combiner is.

Preferable is someplace out of the weather, away from heat, with some air circulation, and where you can reach the manual lockout. There may be some troubleshooting lights on it (not sure) so you might need to see those (but not regularly).
.

Still researching a shore power charger and inverter.
On the inverter I assume it would be between the start battery and the 7622, and the engine would need to be running in order for it to put out anything worthwhile.

The 7622 goes between the start and house battery. OTOH, the inverter has nothing to do with the start battery and is connected only to the house bank. You want it as close as possible to the house bank (for reasons of not needing fire hose sized wire - otherwise you can put it anywhere). I may have confused the issue when I described using my inverter as an "occasional generator." That's not how most people use them (although it works just great). What I do when I want to use it like that (large loads), I start the engine and then turn the combiner on (I have a manual switch) so that the alternator basically puts power in nearly as fast as I'm taking it out. But other than that "odd" use, there is no connection between that and the start bank (and even in my case it's nothing to do with the inverter really). I'm just providing a bunch of power at the same time to make up for using a bunch). This is for high Peukert loads like a heat gun. But the inverter is still wired as per normal, only to the house bank, and as close as possible.

So the Ford dash/Ford start battery is basically a stand-alone system. Then your house systems and house bank are a stand-alone system. They meet in a few rare places (combiner being one, electric step maybe) but those are just bridges in certain places. The systems still basically stand alone. Does that make sense?

Is that clear or is it still confusing?

Oh, also, are you going to use the Ctek arrangement? Maybe that is part of the confusion? They were saying something about putting essential house loads to the start bank or .... I forget the wording exactly. Is that why it is confusing? (I'll admit that sounded weird to me - I think maybe it's intended for something like a Jeep where you might have a large alternator but only a tiny house battery?)

[Riste]

Good morning,
I believe that we are in the same zone, I just haven't explained my ideas very well.
.
Shore Power:
I framed being plugged in as turning the Chinook into a tiny house. That is where the reference to Square D came in. The 110 v comes into the unit through the Progressive EMS-HW30C, into a small residential type box. This box would have a 30 amp main breaker (vs the 200 amp unit on the side of your house). Fed off the main are branch breakers (10 amp, 15 amp as needed) that would be happy with solid wire. This box would feed the Air Con, some duplex outlets, the chest type refrigerator, and the on board smart battery charger for the leisure batteries.
In my mind I don't think I would need any on/off switches other than the breakers.
This would eliminate the need for the Blue Sea AC panel.
I don't see a need for a selector switch for AC/DC in this scenario.
What am I missing?

[Riste]

Combiner/Solar:
I am looking at the 7622 and MorningStar Charge controller as replacing the Ctek setup in my original scheme.
Advantage to 7622 is the manual switch and lock out.
Disadvantage to 7622 is the lack of any "conditioning" of the power being sent to the leisure batteries.
That doesn't seem to be a problem in your setup, but how much would be gained if the feed to the leisure batteries was "conditioned"?
.
The MorningStar has it all over the Ctek solar controller.

[Blue~Go]

Hi Riste,

Okay, I see what you mean on the AC panel. I thought you already had the Blue Sea. I would have to look into why or why not to use a household AC panel in a vehicle. There may be good reasons or there may not. Sometimes things don't do well with vibration that you can use just fine in a house (for example, those yellow corrugated "flex" propane lines). You would have to reverse the change from solid to stranded for the shore charger (which will take stranded wire). If you are going to research this be sure to check how the wires connect to the unit. This is even a weakness with the original brown box (they can loosen due to vibration and people have had that happen and then heat problem ensues). I did do a household AC panel once (in a house) but it has been decades and I don't remember the details.

Also, I gotcha on the 7622/Morningstar combo. Nothing against B2B chargers, but the Ctek didn't really seem to have the goods for your setup. If I did want to condition that power I would look for a different unit (Sterling makes some, although I'd have to read up on the details; also Ctek may make others, but I find the web page with their various models to be a bit hard to comb through).

Is that needed? Well, I'm all for good charging. And the alternator is basically you take what you get, no temp comp, etc. I started with mine as-is (with the new wire, switch, and fusing) because that was already a huge improvement over stock (small wire, lots of voltage drop, no fusing, old-fashioned combiner that robbed power/voltage from connection), and -- mostly -- because I figured I'd be using it only once in a blue moon. And that is how it went for the first three years or so (I might have used it four times). It would probably STILL be accurate if I had not been lazy/indecisive and not put roof panels on.

But this summer I combined a lot of short stays without my ground panels out ("okay, this'll work; um no there is a new fire, time to roll!") with a fair amount of driving. And I STILL had not decided on roof panels. So I ended up using the combiner quite a bit. By now I'm fairly familiar with my system and normal charge stats. And I've been able to watch the alternator output (in volts) with my Scanguage for five years. Based on those things, and what I saw when I did stop and put my panels out, I'm comfortable that it's doing a decent job in bulk (where there is no charge setting really - all the important settings pertain to absorption and float). I can disconnect it if I want to (drive without charging). So I don't think I'll change it unless I possibly go to another battery chemistry.

It would be fun to load test my batteries again (since I did that just before I left last spring), but that was a fairly tedious 20 hours so I don't think I will anytime soon. My guess is they have stayed in the same health, pretty much. But that's just my guess.

So... would your alternator/voltage regulator put out the same? Is this good enough for your use case?

Okay, I rambled off and started to take a look at the Sterling Power units, just to see. Whew, okay, that bogged down quickly. Which isn't to say they shouldn't be researched, but it wasn't going to be a quick fifteen minute side trip. I did see that with most of them I think you'd still have a separate 7622 type product. So you could hold on that decision while you research (and nothing will instantly break if you do charge with a plain alternator although I imagine you will decide before then). If you narrow things down to one or two units, I'd be happy to take a look at the manuals. I'd like to see customized charge settings, remote temp comp, and possibly a current limiter (that might be asking too much though, and probably no need with your smallish flooded house bank).

One thing to keep in mind is that your roof panels will also be charging as you drive, provided the sun is out. And that will be nicely specified power, all customized and spiffy.

PS: This is a minor aside, but I just thought I would mention that both the Morningstar and the amp counter displays I am familiar with have very long "phone wire" type cords for the. So those don't fall under the "oh no, don't make the wire too long!" type of parameter. You can put them wherever is convenient. (I don't know if that is true for the Trimetric.) (The Victron BMV counter also has a phone app display.)

[Blue~Go]

PS: Forgot to mention, no, there is no need for any AC/DC selector panel. You can use either or both at any time.

The thing that usually either has a selector or automatic switch is the *source* for AC power. So you choose generator, shore, or whatever. I think sometimes it's set up so that "Inverter" is a shore choice, but the one large inverter/charger I'm familiar with (not my Chinook) had its own auto transfer switch inside, so the AC panel still only had "shore" and "gen" as selections. But I don't think you'd be getting into any of that with your size system. With my "big" inverter it is a very simple setup wherein the inverter has its own two AC outlets right on the side - they are not tied into all my "shore" outlets.

The "brown box" came with an ATS aka automatic transfer switch on the backside where you couldn't see it. Some of the Blue Sea panels have a manual choice (one choice locks out the others with a slide) or they make separate rotary switches. I don't think there is any need for an ATS unless maybe one has generator auto-start? We don't have that though, at least stock.

If you are (or have already?) removed the generator then I don't think you will have anything to select as far as AC source. It would just be shore unless I'm missing something. I always have to think a bit harder for AC stuff because I'm more used to doing DC. Amazing how with a bit of added voltage (e.g. ten times as much!) you can have mile long skinny wires

[chin_k]

I wonder if there is any 3-way ATS. I only see two-way versions, and if there are three sources, they usually use 2 two ways. I has been thinking about inverter/gen/shore for a while, but it is only been in the planning stage.

[Blue~Go]

Edited to add:

In my stupor I thought this was Riste, so I got confused because all of a sudden his system got big and complicated. It wasn't until Friday night that I noticed this was Chin_k I'll blame the painkillers


That's something I have not looked into. On boats (at least my level of them), you typically select manually, although there are often more than two sources. The RV systems I have seen that use an inverter/charger seem to have that part of the "automaticness" built into the inverter/charger unit (along with the regular ATS).

The thing is, an inverter isn't really a "source." The inverter is taking power from your DC house batteries so it is a load. Other "sources" are all providing charging power that comes from somewhere else. An inverter/charger is both a load and a source (which has its own complications) vs. just an inverter.

At this point in your setup, if it were me I'd step back and take a look at how large a system you want to create and what you want it to do. Anything can be done. But, the reason I say this is that the uses you described before -- and the relatively small size (plus the type) of your house bank -- may not point to a big/fancy system. A proper system, sure. Always good to have proper OCP, not too much voltage drop, good quality stuff. But that doesn't have to be "big." Or big and fancy is okay too, but it just wants to all be in balance. Your loads and charging balance your needs and storage capacity. Setting up for more than you need is okay, but just realize it adds complication and money and size and weight.

Expanding a small system can be done, but the more you can plan it "right sized" to begin with the less extra expense and labor (of course that doesn't preclude upgrading).

BG

PS: If you are thinking about how to hook the inverter up to your shore outlets (but not an inverter/charger).....? You know, I have this vague feeling I went through something like this with my buddy and his travel trailer. It had to do with putting an inverter and separate charger into the system, but with the inverter using the shore outlets. There was some reason a typical switching scheme was going to cause a problem (which I can't put my finger on at the moment). He decided that for his minimal inverter use he'd just keep separate inverter outlets (which is how his trailer came). Another owner figured out a correct way to do it using one of the Blue Sea multiple pole switches (I think five poles)? If that's what you are getting at I'll ask him to remind me of the details.

[chin_k]

When the inverter is used, the converter will need to be disabled since it will be a waste of energy to go 12->120->12 to charge the batteries. Or that is a perpetual energy machine?

If I do end up with triple-source setup, I will put the converter on a relay that is normal-open, but only be closed if the genset or the shore is available. When the cinverter is on, it won't run the converter.