Remodeling refrigerator & stove area (was: electric fridge)

[HoosierB]

Thanks for the pics... looks exactly like mine right now ! My plywood board that the fridge rested on looked more like layers of rice paper due to the water damage. I have removed the carpet and foam underpaying from the gen box. I dropped off my rig to the RV service center yesterday, so I'm on hold for now.
This tip may work...
When replacing the 1/2" MDF "woodgrain" face panels, I will be adding these small 1/2" plastic bumpers to the bottom edge that rests on the floor. This should prevent any wicking in the event of another water leak. The small air gap between the panels and floor will be hidden by the baseboard moulding. Bumpers made by Stanley.

[Blue~Go]

Backing up a bit, here is a shot with pretty much all if the stove/fridge stuff out - I would have loved to see a photo like this before starting in:

Here is a crude mockup of an extended "counter height" counter:

And here is another ridiculously crude mockup of the option with the taller fridge and "bar height" counter to the right, and regular stove counter to the left.

I don't have photos, but now have "sturdy mockups" in place for my favorite option, which is the larger fridge in the "fridge spot" with a bar height counter, and a regular height counter with stove top in the "stove spot" (although that counter is 34", not the original 31-7/8" of the Concourse). This is a mixture of re-used Chinook pieces and Formica'd sink cutouts for counter tops. It's all back to original sturdiness and anchoring/support, so I can live with it for a bit and decide on any tweaks before going in with "real" materials. Also I need to finalize how I want to handle the upper cabinets.

Re: venting, I was originally going to incorporate the lower fridge vent in my compressor venting scheme (you can see in some of the photos that a while back I made a water drain chute for it out of flashing and Eternabond), but now I'm thinking I will just eliminate it - it's leak prone no matter what, would mean a big plenum, and I just don't think is necessary for a small compressor. I will keep the roof vent in some way/shape/form and then let inside air be the compressor cooling inflow. I may also divide the roof vent and use half of it for a real stove hood vent outlet (instead of the slightly sad "recirculating" vent). Unless I change my mind before the final iteration of course. The skylight effect is nice for now

I'm also leaning toward going back with just a stove top - either one- or two-burner - because it will give me a nice slice of countertop next to the burner(s), and also, holy cow, what a HUGE storage space underneath where the oven was (although I do like having an oven, but what a major space hog for the tiny oven space). I may try a Coleman camp oven on the stove top, since I actually find I have the idea of baking more often than I actually bake. Those fold down and stow in a space around 12" x 12" x 1". I have the oven stored away so I could put it back if I change my mind.

Also, although I knew MDF was heavy, gawd but it's heavy. It'll be interesting to stop at a scale again (as I've kept close tabs on weight in the past).

[HoosierB]

Dad-gummit, Blue-Go!
After seeing your cool mock-ups, now you got me sort'a liking the idea of that larger fridge in the fridge spot, again.


FYI: Vitrifrigo explained to me that the remote cooling unit is "hooked up at the factory". The cooling tubes from the fridge box to the remote compressor are aluminum and are "looped" around the unit for shipping. They can be carefully "bent" to aid in the install. The electric terminals are located on the remote unit itself.

[Blue~Go]

Dad-gummit, Blue-Go!
After seeing your cool mock-ups, now you got me sort'a liking the idea of that larger fridge in the fridge spot, again.

Now we're switching back and forth

My cabinetmaker friend and I are just finishing up the "good" mockups (we're going to be taking an unexpected break while he takes care of a family member, and the cardboard wasn't going to cut it for more than a day or so). I'll post some photos over the next day or so.

The 4.7 cu foot with external compressor is pretty nice, but of course requires either the stepped counter, or a ~38" high "low" counter (if it goes over the wheelwell). I decided I liked the stepped counter. The freezer on the smaller unit is not a lot smaller - the refrigerator is what takes the hit.

I've modified my "drain diverter" that I had attached to the lower fridge vent so that now it seals off said vent entirely (but water that goes into the now-very-shallow louvers still drains to the outside). Ultimately I may do something better, but this is already much more leak-proof than the original. It looks no different than stock on the outside.

The main thing is that now the entryway is like a freeway vs. a single-track. Ahhhhhhhh....

The other thing we mocked up was raising the sink/counter to 34" (from 31-7/8") and moving it toward the aisle by 1-1/2" or so (either just the countertop or both it and the base cabinet, not sure yet). The reason for moving it in slightly is so that I can choose from a vast array of "normal" sinks (the shallower front-to-back depth was very limiting). Now that the aisle is wider there's actually "extra" room. We came up with a plan for dealing with the window/curtain/possible need to remove window trim ring to re-bed/repair window.

I'll post photos - will make it easier to visualize.

[HoosierB]

Detailed pics of your custom "drain diverter" would be interesting as well.

[Blue~Go]

Note: I think I'm going to start a new thread for a couple of "remodeling" projects. Just since this was originally a discussion about going to a compressor refrigerator, and now I'm actually moving over to the sink side (plus etc.). I'll put links here.

Here is the sink-side thread:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=150

[HoosierB]

Blue-Go... need your take on the ceiling attachment points for the microwave cabinet and forward wall of the old fridge. My micro cab has been reduced in depth to 19". Width and height are original dimensions.
My concern is, by cutting away the center of the old fridge wall to allow for the straight countertop conversion, I would be relying on the one wood ceiling cleat to support the aft side panel of the microwave cab when it's reinstalled. There are several existing attachment points to the dinette overhead cab section and the back wall. If need be, will the ceiling accommodate new cleats for the front and that side panel? I don't want screws popping out the exterior of the roof . I've heard (not verified) that the Chinook roof is a "sandwich" of two fiberglass layers (ceiling and outside roof) with foam in between. ?

Any thoughts/info would be appreciated.

[Blue~Go]

Hi Hoosier,

I do have some information for you. I started with some 1999 sketches from Chinook that show what's inside the walls and overhead. On my rig it is basically identical to the sketches (I have literally looked at the pieces in the walls), and yours will likely be similar. I'll try to post the sketches, but basically it goes like this:

The overhead is basically foam sandwiched between a thicker top roof layer of fiberglass, and a thinner inner skin of fiberglass. But in certain places they placed plywood instead of foam, for attachment points. Where there is a need to do something creative is in the area of the stove/microwave/refrigerator overhead if you are bringing the cabinets closer to the wall (shallower) because in that area the plywood is out closer to the middle. There are two horizontal strips of wood in the stove wall, and then one vertical strip corresponding with the divider between fridge and stove, so you can use those. I have a shallow mockup cabinet over the stove (as of yesterday) and it is anchored to the aft edge of the forward cabinets and the forward edge of the fridge wall (I cut that wall back but not all the way). There is nothing in the overhead or the rear wall otherwise in this area. That said, one could drill something like a 2" "apple core" into the roof foam, fill it with thickened epoxy, and tap into it. I don't think I will need to but something like that is an option.

One thing I found is that the main purpose of the forward fridge wall (the plywood one) is to hold the side of the rig steady. Otherwise it can sort of "billow" in and out. It is much less rigid than the roof. I have taken this into account and the mockups now have it probably sturdier than original. Idea is that if the wall can't move in or out, the roof also stays secure. But I did have to kind of adjust my thinking to the Chinook building technique, which is sort of half boat and half RV. I have done fiberglass boat work, so I was able to transfer over the concept of bulkheads and etc.

I will see if I can post the sketches now, and maybe better, I will take a photo of my mockups which show how I did it, plus I have blue tape on the walls showing where the wood is behind. I'll try to post those later today.

Thinking: How would I do it if I were doing the continuous countertop and wanted to keep it rigid?

Well, first of all, I would make the countertop be a structural member, by having something like ledgers just under the top and connected to the horizontal wood strips that are now behind the stove. I would also connect it to the vertical strip that is behind the existing fridge/stove bulkhead. Then I would tie to the closet wall, but the closet wall is not really tied to the coach by much. Then the upper cabinets would be anchored to the ceiling wood strips, and to the vertical piece that is now at the fridge/stove joint. There is also the back edge of the ply that surrounds the window.

But this all still leaves you with an unsupported "middle area" (i.e. the wall between top of counters and upper cabinets). Plus a slight stress riser at the top of the counter. I think I would still leave a slight bit of the plywood bulkhead, connected to the vertical strip firmly.. That's just me. One could go all out with tabbing and stringers etc. and eliminate that, but if you don't mind having it (the slight plywood divider) it is simple and sturdy. You'll see in my "functional mockups" that I left a "C shape" in that bulkhead, and I am very happy with how firm things are. I think that's a good way if you can be happy with that slight "septum" in your countertop. (You'll see in the photos.)

Let's keep discussing - it's fun

Okay, I'll try to post the drawings now (if they are not good enough in resolution, do know that the ones I have are bigger/sharper files if you need a detail).

Roof:

Roof construction detail.pdf

(617.57 KiB) Downloaded 406 times

Passenger side wall:

wall construction detail.pdf

(666.95 KiB) Downloaded 418 times

[HoosierB]

Blue_go,

Thanks for the schematics! When I get my rig back, I'll take a close look.

Yes, I was planning on using horizontal supports to tie the countertop/cabinets/closet together.

I like the idea of a vertical "septum" support. It solves the need for a continuous structural brace, it's not obtrusive... and, it made me realize the need for vertical "VENT SHAFT" space for the remote cooling unit at the cooktop back wall. The little bump-out at the back wall could also serve as a side attachment point for an additional "galley rail" spice rack under the microwave. My original plan had that wall up against the interior of the outside shell (duh). Proves that doing actual mockups is a better way to getting a clear picture. Here's a revised drawing. Take a look and see if this is what you were suggesting.

THANKS!

[Blue~Go]

Okay, back with photos. Keep in mind that these are "functional mockups," and they are not even finished yet. But I think they will be helpful to the discussion at this point, so I'm posting them. I also re-named the thread to better reflect what's being discussed (and this makes sense, as switching to a compressor based refrigerator naturally leads one to consider the entire configuration of this side of the kitchen).

So, here we go. First an overview, and then some details about the "structural tie points" in the walls of my rig (which closely match the Chinook diagrams).

Here we have the mockups as they stand now. The cardboard box represents a Vitrifrigo 4.7 cubic foot refrigerator/freezer with separate compressor. The upper cabinets above the refrigerator are not in yet, even in mockup form.

So, as you can see, I have removed the oven (at least for now), and raised the stove counter to 34" (from 31-7/8"). The microwave cabinet and range hood are gone. I will end up with some sort of range hood, possibly vented (for real!) out the former refrigerator roof vent (where the Vitrifrigo compressor will also vent). There will be some more cabinetry over the "fridge counter." Under the stove is undecided pending a decision on the stove, and do I want huge bulk storage (folding bicycle, dive gear) or more usual things such as drawers, or maybe the oven back. Ultimately I will also replace the face wall of the closet (which is crooked now), but it will likely just be a better/lighter/straighter version of the original. Hence, no need to mock up anything.

I wanted the bigger fridge, and I also wanted an "entryway staging and landing area," more than I wanted more kitchen counter height counter space. I'm used to boats, so even the original counter area was fine, and if I go with the smaller cooktop, the counter space will be tripled even without using that over-fridge counter (of course it CAN also function as kitchen space, but I mean if I had really wanted it to be "always kitchen," I would perhaps have made it all at counter height.

I planned the fridge compartment so I can add some additional foamboard insulation around the fridge, plus it ties into the "wall wood" strip. It's basically around 1" aft of where it was, and I may move it another 1/2" or so aft in the final iteration (once I have fridge in hand).

Here is a face-on view of the stove area:

This is with a mockup one-burner cooktop; a two-burner will also fit fine, but with less counter space. I am going to use a one-burner portable stove I have for now to test out how I like that, and how much I miss a second burner. Also, if I do go with the single burner, I'd keep the portable for a second burner in a pinch, and (more useful) to be able to take it out to a picnic table for hot days, just because I feel like it, to cook fish, etc. The upper cabinet is higher and shallower - may bring it back out a bit but I was so sick of that microwave box/hood in my face that I went "plenty clear" for now.

Similar view of fridge area. Yet to be designed is the stuff above this. This countertop is around 45" high. I may be able to bring it down an inch or so once I remove the 1" of carpet/padding on the generator and use actual soundproofing material.

The "septum" piece may change - this was just roughly cut out of the original board. I may continue the above-stove counter top right aft - not sure yet.